Joel Myers is a USPTA Elite Professional tennis coach, the 2021 USPTA San Diego Pro of the Year, and the tennis director at Coronado Tennis Center in San Diego, California. He also is a former Division 1 college player from Australia with professional aspirations before injuries ended his career early. Joel also has nearly 120,000 followers on Instagram (@joel_myers_tennis), where he shares his coaching advice.
In this episode, Joel and I discuss club-level doubles tactics, from common positional errors to shot selection, and more.
You'll also hear Joel and I debate if the better player should play deuce or ad, weighing the psychology of high-pressure points against the advantage of more return opportunities. You'll get plenty of actionable doubles advice in this episode.
See the shownotes for this episode here: https://www.thetennistribe.com/joel-myers-interview/
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**Doubles Strategy Courses** These video courses will help you play smarter doubles and make winning easier.
**Doubles Ebooks** These guides offer proven advice to improve your doubles strategy.
***
Download your free doubles guide to learn how to force errors and get more easy volleys at TheTennisTribe.com/doubles-guide/.
***
Joel Myers is a USPTA Elite Professional tennis coach, the 2021 USPTA San Diego Pro of the Year, and the tennis director at Coronado Tennis Center in San Diego, California. He also is a former Division 1 college player from Australia with professional aspirations before injuries ended his career early. Joel also has nearly 120,000 followers on Instagram (@joel_myers_tennis), where he shares his coaching advice.
In this episode, Joel and I discuss club-level doubles tactics, from common positional errors to shot selection, and more.
You'll also hear Joel and I debate if the better player should play deuce or ad, weighing the psychology of high-pressure points against the advantage of more return opportunities. You'll get plenty of actionable doubles advice in this episode.
See the shownotes for this episode here: https://www.thetennistribe.com/joel-myers-interview/
***
**Doubles Strategy Courses** These video courses will help you play smarter doubles and make winning easier.
**Doubles Ebooks** These guides offer proven advice to improve your doubles strategy.
***
Download your free doubles guide to learn how to force errors and get more easy volleys at TheTennisTribe.com/doubles-guide/.
***
In today's episode, I interview coach Joel Myers. Joel is a USPTA elite professional. He won the 2021 USPTA San Diego Pro of the Year and he's the tennis director at Coronado Tennis Center in San Diego. And I reached out to Joel because I've followed him for a while on Twitter, but he shares a lot of his lessons on Instagram, where he has over 115,000 followers. So I really like these lessons a lot with coaches that are also very active on some of these social platforms online, because what these social platforms do, like Instagram or YouTube, is they force you to consolidate your lessons in a very concise way and it makes it a lot more applicable to you as the tennis player and as the student. So anybody who has over 100,000 followers on Instagram obviously is doing something right. So I reached out to Joel.
Speaker 1:We had a really great conversation all about tennis strategy as well as a little bit of technique. So in this episode we cover some doubles tips from his Instagram channel. He actually has a highlight called doubles tips that I highly recommend. We talk about his tennis story. He's from Australia. It seemed like he was maybe on a path to a pro career before having an injury, so he talks a little bit about that. And then we talk about strategy. So we talk about different skill sets that three, five and four oh players need, which is a lot of who he is coaching on a regular basis. We talk about how to develop more confidence at the net, including volley technique mistakes and drills. We talk about how to beat pushers, how to win with a weak doubles partner, and a lot more. So, again, I think these episodes with some of these coaches who are doing a lot online, you can learn a ton from them. I know a lot of you found me through Instagram or YouTube or just people referring to you to the podcast, and this is a great way to learn from others who are doing a really good job of coaching online as well. So, without further delay, enjoy this strategy episode with Joel Myers.
Speaker 1:Hey everybody, welcome to the show. Today we have coach Joel Myers on Joel Welcome. Hey. Well, thanks for having me. So you've got. I wanted to start with your Instagram channel, because you've got over a hundred thousand followers on Instagram, so obviously you're producing a lot of good content there. So I was going through some of it earlier and at the top you've got your highlights and one of them is called doubles tips. So, first off, everybody listening, I highly recommend you go to his Instagram channel and check out these doubles tips and follow him. But also I wanted to ask specifically about a few of these. So the first one is about how to split up the court. What are the big mistakes you see at the club level in terms of how to split up the court and then how do we fix or correct that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think splitting up the court for most players they look at the center line and for us who coach doubles, you know it's really common that we're always, you know, telling our players at the net, don't be so concerned about the line, don't worry about the alley so much.
Speaker 2:But when you look at the way you know a doubles court really is best split. It's sort of cut like a sandwich. From the net post to the corner, let's say the players on the ad side of the net the net player is going to cover, from the right net post to sort of just like the depth line of the ad court. Yeah, it's kind of the diagonal angle. So the back player covers the lobs, the front player has access to the balls that go through the middle, but really not concerned so much about the alley. I think players really over cover the alley, especially at a three, five to four, five level. So the way they need to split it is a lot more corner to corner, like a sandwich, and trying to think about the airspace you're trying to cover, especially as a front player.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And as I spend, I've spent more time on court myself this year. You know, historically I've mostly been online and I've been trying to come up with like better and better ways to articulate this to players, because, you know, sometimes I'll say it one way and then they'll go out there and play their match and then nothing changes and it's like they seem to get it but they're not implementing it. And I guess a lot of it does have to do with just, you know, I'm going to play the do side, you're going to play the ad side. So then we think like, okay, well, during the point, I'm either covering the do side or the ad side, but that's really not how good doubles is played.
Speaker 2:Yes, I think it's just such a fear that you're going to look bad. Your side of the court's going to look bad. You know, and I think you've got to remember, that doubles is a team game and if you know, I'm the net player, you're my opponent at the baseline. You're blasting balls down the line. I mean number one. My partner has to hit a decent enough ball that it makes it hard for you to go down the line. So you know, that's number one. It has to be a tough ball for you to go down the line.
Speaker 2:On Number two, I have to be watching you so I can recognize when you have the opportunity to go down the line. You know number three I need to disguise my movement If I'm, you know, telegraphing my move, my pokerly, and you see that you're going to pull the trigger down the line. And then you know four and this is the hardest for club level players is that sometimes the shot is just too good or the player gets lucky, and you have to understand that that doesn't mean you cover that line for the rest of the match. You're just trying to play what's going to happen most of the time, not what's going to happen a little bit in time, even though sometimes what happens a little bit at a time makes you feel really bad at the net and like you've let your partner down.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, that's a lesson I try to tell a lot of people. I'll see it all the time. They'll play a perfect point and lose the point, and one of them will say to their partner oh my bad, and I'll go interrupt them and say, no, no, no, you didn't do anything wrong there. If you all play that exact same point 10 times, you're going to win six or seven of them and that's perfect. So that's a really, really good lesson there. So another highlight from that doubles tip section was the staggered formation, and this is something that the listeners, you know if they've been listening to the show a while, they'll be pretty familiar with. I talk a lot about how to use that staggered formation to help cover the lob, because the lob is so prevalent at the club level. But the example you use, I think, is probably the best example I've ever seen, because they actually shift their staggered formation up and back according to where the ball is. So talk a little bit about the staggered formation and how we should be using it at the club level.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So let's say you and I are coming to the net and you're on the juice side coming to the net. When you come in level with me or next to me, we don't really know who's going to take that center ball, so there's confusion there. But also, if the opponent gets a lob over the top of your head, I can't help. Once you get really close to the net and the cross court lob is an option for your opponent. If they can see that and hit that, we're sort of dead in the water.
Speaker 2:So coming up to staggered formation means that you're the juice court player. I'm the ad court player. You've approached the net and you're going to come to the net just a little bit inside the service line. I'm going to be front and center in the ad court box and I'm hunting everything through the middle. You're back there to provide lob support if that happens, but also to make sure that anything that is an option for you to move in and to knock off, you'll do that too, but it really helps us to cover the ball. That otherwise would be just an easy lob that's going to go over the top and when you play players and other teams that love to lob. You can play that stagger a little bit further back, but maybe that front player isn't crushing the net as much, maybe they're slightly more back and maybe that back player is staggered a little bit further back, just predicting that a lob is more likely to come.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's one of the things I liked about the way you explained that lesson was you're giving up the two lowest percentage shots, which are down the line. Lob right, you don't want to give them the cross court lob because they have so much more court to hit into. And then that sharp angle is really low percentage as well.
Speaker 2:So you're kind of giving that a yeah exactly, you're covering the highest percentage shots that are going to be hit, so you're forcing your opponent into the lowest percentage shot, which is always going to be, in the long run, it's going to be in your favor. So, yeah, that's definitely the way you want to do that when you come in.
Speaker 1:Right, and this is a you know, all of these tactics I tell people like these are great places to start and then, of course, adjust accordingly. I've certainly had matches where I've played players who love their cross court angle role forehand and it's like, okay, I've got to make an adjustment here. So one other Instagram highlight here that I actually kind of want to challenge you on. So I'm going to see if I can convince you to change your mind on this, or you can convince me to change my mind.
Speaker 1:So you had some screenshots of several tweets that had some really good lessons on serve net, play, return strategy, all sorts of stuff. But one of the things that I've done some lessons on this year and this is actually probably the most controversial subject that I've created content on is starting with the best return on the ad side. Is that something you still believe or is it something you've changed your mind on? Explain it a little bit for us.
Speaker 2:So I've made content in the past where I think if you're playing standard formation, then you recognize that 75% of game points are on the ad side.
Speaker 2:So, considering how short a rally length is in doubles I think it's around 2.7 shots you want to put your best return on the ad side so that you can get the point started when it matters the most, since if you're playing standard formation, only 40, 15 and 1540 are going to be game ending points. Obviously, that changes completely if it's sudden death juice. But there are other factors too and I think you'll probably bring those up the better volley being in the middle, the better return of serve. Maybe your forehand return of serve is better. So you want to put that on the ad side because more serves are going to come through the tee as the server is trying to set the partner up. But that's where that thought process comes from is to put the better player on the ad side, where most of the game points are going to be, where the pressure points are going to be to get the point started.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that makes sense to me.
Speaker 1:I mean the one thing so this was a couple of years back at this point but I had Steve Smith on the show and he first talked about this to me where the Deucecourt player is going to end up with more total returns in the match.
Speaker 1:So you'd rather have your better player taking more of the returns and then, of course, with that like, if your Deucecourt player is stronger, you're more likely to get that 3040 point, versus if you have your weaker player than the Deucecourt, you're more likely to be down 3040 and not see as many break points. I think and I need to see I think I read that you majored in psychology so maybe you'll know more about this but I want to see more data on how the weaker player performs on big points, because if they see a drop in performance on big points, then I would agree to leave the stronger player on the ad side. But if they win the same percentage of points on big points as they do normal points, then I think this kind of goes out the window and it's like return wherever you all think is best?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, I mean when you put the better player. And it's hard saying better player, because I have been the better player with the weaker returner and played the Deucecourt just because my return wasn't the strength of my game. So I think it depends on the doubles team. But from a purely analytical, like important standpoint, that's what sort of sticks out. If you've got somebody who is better, like you were saying, better under pressure, you know, even if you're down, even if you regularly get down, point down, you get a better chance to hold.
Speaker 2:But then I do see the argument on the other side where you need that Deucecourt player to get the advantage and then you have a better backhand volley in the middle, stronger shots from the center of the court. So yeah, it's more complicated than it seems. It does seem easy just to give the statistics of 75%. But yeah, I guess, team by team basis, you got to analyze that. I'm still 50-50 on which one I prefer to be honest. But I do like the thought of getting the ball started, getting the player that has a better return in play that we can convert or save the game point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think another point to make and then we'll change subjects is that this isn't the only factor that we should be taking into account when we're choosing return sides. So a lot of times it's best to return with strengths in the middle. So if you've got a lefty, you might go forehands in the middle, regardless of if you return better on the other side. Or if, like you said earlier, one player is better at the net with the other at the baseline, then you want to consider having their forehand volley in the middle or whatever their strongest volley is. So there's other factors. This is the factor that I feel like people maybe put too much weight on because it's such a kind of controversial debate, so they ultimately just ride or die by my best returners in the ad or my best returners in the deuce. But they need to be considering a lot more than just who is your best returner.
Speaker 2:And also the opponent. If the opponent makes a lot of first serves, you know, and they're consistently making first serves that puts more emphasis on the return. If the opponent is a bit of a bomb or balloon player, where they miss the bomb and they have to hit the balloon more often, then it's maybe not as important because that slow second serves much easier to get in play. So it also depends on the other team you're playing and you can make that adjustment after the first set anyway.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good point because, like for myself, I usually return on the ad side because I have a good crawl score backhand return. But if somebody has a really good first serve down the tee, they can rush my forehand and give me a lot of forehand return errors.
Speaker 2:It's so tough? Yeah, it's so tough.
Speaker 1:So in that case, like I might be better on the deuce side and force them to hit a slice, served my forehand where my forehand has more time and I have a really good forehand crawl score return from the deuce side if I have time to hit it. But a lot of players don't have that fast pace forehand to the ad side and they just try to hit to my backhand anyways because we're told to serve to the backhand, or I guess a lot of people are.
Speaker 2:So it's a complex topic? Yeah, it is, and it depends on the level you're playing it as well. It becomes more important. The return and stuff becomes more important as players get more serves in at a higher pace and can't just miss returns. We know that in doubles you've got to make a high clip of first serves and you've got to make a high clip of returns, especially first serve returns. Second serve returns are typically your opportunity, so that's the time where you're favoured. But yeah, it doubles returning. It's so tough. I mean, you have such a small window to get the ball in play. You've got a hunting net player looking to take any floating return and tag your partner, so you feel the pressure of not just playing a super defensive return. Your partner gets killed or going too aggressive and missing a tongue. So double returning is tough.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it really is. It's under-practiced as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I want to get back to some strategy and even a few technical questions, but tell us your tennis story. How did you get started? I know you're from Melbourne and then now you're in San Diego. What kind of happened in between there?
Speaker 2:So I was a decent junior. I moved to Melbourne to further my tennis when I was a young player and then I spent most of my days training there at Melbourne Park. It was an amazing experience. Good to see a lot of Australian opens, a lot of pros come and go. I get, just, you know, be inspired by that quality of tennis.
Speaker 2:I always wanted to play pro myself and then around 18, I suffered a shoulder injury. I played an Aussie rules football match and I tore my shoulder out. So I was out for a year and in that year I didn't play. So I sort of. My next step was to try and get to college, and not many colleges really wanted to touch me after a shoulder injury. So I ended up finally settling and going in Point Limer here in San Diego and I spent four years here. I started psychology. I was decent in college as a player and then I decided that I wanted to start my coaching career and did that for 10 years, and three years ago I became the tennis director here for the municipal facilities here in Coronado. So we run all the tennis programs here on the city courts.
Speaker 1:Where were you before Melbourne? Where were you born?
Speaker 2:I was born in Sydney and then I moved to Melbourne around 11.
Speaker 1:Okay, and did your family kind of play tennis and stuff. And that's how you got started in.
Speaker 2:No, you know my my grandfather did not that I actually knew that. But I just I loved hitting the ball against the wall watching Wimbledon and I just really liked the individual aspect of tennis that if I played well and I won, I earned the result and if I lost I earned that result as well. So I just really loved the athleticism. I grew up watching some of the big servers. I love the power game, but yeah, it was just really fun. Tennis is so much fun. You're chasing the ball around, snaking it over the net. It was great. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I was reading your bio on your website and one of the quotes here that stood out to me was when you work with me, you will know why you're making a change or why a certain strategy is important. Talk about the importance of teaching that why to your students.
Speaker 2:Well, the why is for buying, and whether it's for the player or the parent, you know. I'll give you an example. A lot of juniors have Western grips and they learn to deal with high balls above the shoulder with a Western grip. It could be a forehand. And what they don't look at is in the future. They say I want to get to a certain level of tennis and you go OK, well, at that level, this is what's going to happen. The ball is going to come faster and deeper, and here are the fundamental things that have to happen for you to hit that forehand well. And the more inefficiency there are in your technique in that area, the harder it's going to be for you to get to that level and be effective. So you need to win them over with the why. You need to show them why it's important, and the more that they buy in, the quicker they make that change.
Speaker 2:It's really tough to get players to buy in if they don't understand the why, and I think you want students that are involved in that process and ask smart questions. You involve the parents as much as you can to make sure that they can enforce those when you're not around, because obviously I'm not around all the time for the kids, but understanding the why is huge and I think players that really love tennis they want to know why. They want to know why you need to learn how to serve. They want to know why you have to practice first, follow these around the service line. So these things are important and the more you get by in, the more results you get.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense and it'll I would imagine it would motivate the player while they're working on the thing right and you'll get faster results when they really understand what's going on as well. I have a theory that I kind of want to run by you, so do you think it? When I was reading your bio, you mentioned strategy a few times. Do you think that too many coaches focus too much on technique and not enough on strategy?
Speaker 2:I think that they're both so intertwined.
Speaker 2:I think if you have certain technical flaws, then you won't be able to use certain strategies.
Speaker 2:So on a base element, you need to have pretty efficient technique which allows you to do a lot of different things tactically.
Speaker 2:And if you have something that, if you have something that is absolutely hemorrhaging points or something that you can't, you simply can't come to the net because your backswing is so big that you have to stop before you hit your approach shot and then you don't get to come to the net so you have to hit a volley throw that's behind the service line. If things like that aren't fixed, then you're not gonna have the ability to problem solve and use different tools in a match to beat somebody or to beat another double-steam. So I think they're really intertwined. I think the coaches maybe look a lot at a style rather than fundamentals. I think the fundamentals are the things that make technique efficient. So there are certain things players are gonna gravitate to doing that you don't need to overcoach, but fundamental elements of swings and swing paths and stuff. They need to be hit in order for players to be able to execute these certain swings and certain shots and then to be able to use the strategy against other players.
Speaker 1:What about for, like, a typical club players? So let's say it's like a 40 or 50-year-old adult who's playing four hours a week, right, and it's maybe a 30 or 35 person who's they're playing for their local league but they're not really trying to develop their game and get to like a 4550 level. I feel like at a certain point it's like okay, we're not fixing your pancake grip on your serve, or like it's just not gonna happen. So how do you manage that?
Speaker 2:Well, I think, personally, you've got to ask the client what their goal is. The first question that is from me is like, what do you want to do with tents? Like, are you a competitive player? Are you a doubles player? Do you just want to come out and bang balls and get a great workout? Are you here to be social?
Speaker 2:It depends on what their goal is, but if you've got a player that's like I can't make a forehand return in the court and you go and look at their technique and their Western grip taking the racket above their head, I think you've got to address that technically, technically. The other thing that I think that I notice a lot with with cod players between three and four, I was just they don't manage their contact points very well, and so you might have decent technique or maybe you got something a little bit funky, but you'll miss the contact point trying to get that swing in. And I think one of the biggest indicators of this in doubles is where the cross court lob comes in and you see that baseline player back off the baseline so they can fit their swing in instead of shortening the swing and just holding better court position and having good contact point. You see that all the time and I think that's one of the key skills for doubles players is to be able to shorten the swing out and manage the contact point, and it gives them all sorts of options strategically as well, like taking the ball out of the air or on the rise.
Speaker 2:But it is hard to change technique, especially if it's been ingrained. But I think it just comes down to what the player wants to do. I think with adults because they have such limited time to practice, so maybe they play in a clinic, a doubles clinic, and they have their matches, and it's a really tough way to work on strategy. If you can get some even some friendly match play in there against some other players and you can work on tactics and strategy and things that you're not super comfortable with, that'll go a long way to developing some confidence that you can use in matches. That's something that I think adults probably don't use enough of.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So when you say contact point, do you mean like the height of the ball when we're making contact, or do you mean like letting it come to you to get into your hitting zone, or some combination of both?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so sort of a combination of both. So you know the optimum contact point for your forehand and where that needs to be. So if you hit a high ball to me, I either I move, maybe I move back and hit it. I hit on the rise, but I'm gonna hit it at that common contact point that I'm familiar with, rather than me. You know, getting my crazy wind up and trying to make all that happen and then sacrifice that contact point for a less quality shot. So I think a lot of players sort of make that mistake. They almost need to reverse-engineer their swings and go okay, here's where contact needs to be, and then, however much time I have to get to that point, that's how big the swing can be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like that a lot. Yeah, the other area I see that a lot is when they are. I actually just did a podcast on this last week. But when they're transitioning to the net, a lot of players really don't wanna let the ball drop. So they'll reach so far forward and hit this just really terrible volley that they'll usually miss or pop it up for the opposing team because they're trying to reach forward for the ball rather than just letting it come to them and staying patient as they move forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah and I think, yeah, absolutely. I think that volling at the net, too, is so much about movement and so much less about the stroke. If you can move well at the net, then you can volley well, because you get two main sources of power are gonna be from your opponent's shot. Just by blocking, you get about 50% of your opponent's pace coming back off your string bed and then your momentum. So when you're moving forward whether that be before a poacher, before holding your ground and staying home at the net doubles you're gonna get momentum and pop from that volley, just from moving forward. Not to mention, you get to hit that volley at a higher contact point and you get to cut down on their angle as well. Lots of benefits from moving forward. I think. For a lot of co-players it's, though it's not getting that volley and it's the recovery back to home base and doing it again, because you need to be really active as a good net player in doubles With your movement, your recovery, if you don't get that volley.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I feel like I tell a lot of people, more so with volleys than ground strokes. When they miss, they miss it with their feet and their lower body rather than their upper body or their swing. I mean, there's, of course, the occasional players who take too big of a backswing, but a lot of times if you fix the footwork it kind of fixes everything else. Yes, so before the call, you messaged me about skill sets for three, five and four oh, doubles players. So let's go through those now.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So there's a lot of things that I try and, week by week, work on players to get their confidence up, because you'll find that they get into certain modes where they won't take a ball on the rise, they won't take it out of the air and they're just really scared to fail doing that and some of the skill sets that we work on a swing volleys or drive volleys, depending where you're from taking the ball on the rise and this is like I was saying earlier, like managing your contact point you have to do that to do some of these things.
Speaker 2:But that gives you an advantage, especially against the moon ball. I think everybody is gonna at some point it's gonna struggle against the moon ball and having these offensive weapons, it gives you a chance to sort of break up the rhythm and break up their momentum a little bit. But I like to tell my players to make sure that they're doing that when they're up in the scoreboard. I think many players don't really use the scoreboard well to determine how much risk they can take. And if you are ahead a little bit, that's the time where maybe you take somebody's lob crosscourt out of the air as a swing volley, drive it right through the middle and if you miss, at least you're sending the message that you're ready to take that ball on occasionally, and it just keeps the thread of that in the back of your opponent's head.
Speaker 1:Yeah that's definitely a really good skill to have. One thing I want to highlight and you can talk more about is you said the point score matters. So if they hit that lob crosscourt, you take that swinging volley, you said, through the middle of the court. Why through?
Speaker 2:the middle of the court.
Speaker 2:So you know a swing volley is high risk. It's a very aggressive shot. Typically the net player is not going to look to poach that. But if you aim at the middle and you catch up early, high chance that's still going to go in crosscourt. If you catch that ball late, like many of us do, it's going to go right at the net player, which has a great effect as well. So the importance of the targets and a big target on such an aggressive shot is really important. If you're really trying to thread the needle crosscourt on that and you catch it early, you're going to send it wide. So I think that's where the bigger you go with the shot, the less the net player is going to be an influencer, especially at the 3-5-4-0 level, and you're going to make more of those balls in. And if you do hit it right in the middle, that's a great ball. That's a really good chance that you're going to set your net player up for a volley?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it definitely is, and I think when we go through, you've seen a lot of coaches have the ways to force an error where you can use height, direction, spin speed, all these things, but my favorite one that I teach to doubles players is time, just like taking time away from the opponent. Of course they're related, so you can do that by hitting with more speed or by stepping forward, and we're talking about stepping forward here. So taking the ball on the rise and early is going to take time away from the opponent, and then also these swinging volleys are taking time away from the opponent by not even letting it bounce, and when we're doing that, we're not focused on hitting it hard, we're just going to let the by shrinking the path that the ball has to travel. That's how we're going to take away the time, so we don't have to hit harder.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And that's where, again, is that something that you know you're getting logged to death cross court, or it can be down the line if you can get there. But taking a swing volley might be something you do when you're up, so you decide to put a bit more pace on it, attack with more power, but if it's a more important point, maybe you take just a standard volley and no one will have to go a little bit more cross court, but it doesn't have to have, like you're saying, the pace on it to have an effect. You're sending it back, you know, almost twice as fast by not letting it bounce. And that's where sometimes some of those volleys where you play them just cross court short, it doesn't allow the baselineer to get back into another log, so it can be really effective. But you can determine the type of ball out of the air you hit based on the score, but you are committed to taking it out of the air and I think that's something that you want to definitely work on as a three, three, five, three, four player.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I feel like I almost never see that at that level too. I really liked the idea of teaching that because it sounds very doable and super effective against some of the teams that people tell me are annoying to play, which is like the pushers and the lobbers, right.
Speaker 2:So I think one of the things with it with a lobber, is, like you know, they're predictable. So you know, if they lob you cross and you lob back cross, you can almost guarantee a lob's coming. So I do something in some of my clinics where I'll have a, you know, a feed to somebody who has to lob and the the this side of the court where I've fed from will creep in a little bit and you know, maybe two feet inside the baseline and they're determined to take that next ball out of the air and then we play it live. So it could be a swing volley from then or the ball could be dropping short and they come in and if it's really short they'll take a ground stroke, but if it's shorter they can come in and take a standard volley if the ball is dropping. But it just brings that ball down to a lower level and it really rushes the player that likes that time to get that moonball off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Absolutely. What other skill sets do you like to teach your three, five four-year level players?
Speaker 2:So something that really kills me when I watch I watch some of the USCA doubles leagues is second serves and letting them, letting them drop from the peak. So you know it just kills me. So you see a first serve, return position on the baseline, the server misses the first serve and then they don't really move in off that next ball, this week's second serve comes in, it peaks and it drops under the net. And now you've got a situation where if the player decides to be aggressive, they're trying to be aggressive from below the level of the net, where it's a massive obstacle and they usually don't have the spin to bring that ball back down on the court. So they'll send it long or they'll send it in the net.
Speaker 2:But really that's solved by putting a premium on contact point above the net. So standing in a lot closer, taking that ball even with a shorter backswing and sometimes the serve for that week, that you sort of have to come to the net and you've got to approach. But you really lose such a massive advantage in the double score once you let the ball drop below the level of the net. You've got to hit up again, which, as we know it brings the net player into play. Brings your opponent's net player into play.
Speaker 1:Yeah, especially on second serves, it's yeah, you've got to take advantage of those points.
Speaker 2:You have to, and then I think that you're 3-0 to 4-0 level if you also have the ability to develop a good slice and that could be a chip in charge. That could also be a short slice and approach, because some of these serves we're talking there they're really quite short in the box, they're short in the court, you're almost dragged in on the approach. But the ability to have a slice and even a short slice that's, the opponent can't distinguish which one is coming. You can wreak havoc with that server where you can drive the slice you know deeper and put them under a little bit of pressure that way. Or, moving in, you can hit it short and try and set your net player up. But it's another way that you can use the front of the court and disguise it well, because it's very hard to tell what's coming off that wing, off a slice.
Speaker 1:I like that a lot so you can. So for people listening, you can set up a drill with your coach or your doubles partner and just have them feed short second serves and just practice those slices and have a target deep cross court and then have a target short cross court and just alternate that depth Because you'll face you face so many players at that level who you know. I mean, we're all getting older so some of us don't have as much speed.
Speaker 1:So a lot of the servers almost everybody's serving and staying back, especially on a second serve. So a lot of them are not going to be able to get up to that short one and then if you give them a few of those they'll serve, come forward and then you can give them the deep one. That's the. I like that a lot. That's really good.
Speaker 2:It's good, good variety. I do think that if you move forward aggressively and you have to make it look like you might go down the line, because when you hit a slice they sometimes have a tendency to float and if the net player can read you they can have some success there. So you've got to occasionally, you know, sometimes take it down the line, but you pre-plan that. But you always have to hate that. Moving up to that ball make it look like you're dangerous going down the line. It just keeps that net player off the center of the net when you're moving forward against the second serve.
Speaker 1:When should we be going down the line as the returner?
Speaker 2:I think second serves a great option early in the match send the message. You know I think we are, even when you've been told this so many times and I think it's really funny. Some of the clinics that I've had for years now is I tell my players, if you get beaten down the line, don't move off that home-based spot in the center of the box. But everybody has that tendency when they've been beaten down the line to move over and watch that alley. And so I think early in the match you can send the time by driving it right down the line. And I like to tell the players that I work with you got to hit it above the net.
Speaker 2:So like we just talked about, but aiming at the singles line, the singles line is a great guide because you know the alley is only four and a half feet wide. So if you're a little bit off there you have some margin. If you hit it well there and the net player misses that bolly, you also have the added bonus to sort of shipping away a little bit at their confidence the net, which is great in the long term. But I think early in the match I think up in the score times like that where the point is not really important, because it is a higher risk shot and if the net player, if it's a lower ball and the net player has a decent bolly, then they'll knock off that bolly through the middle of the court. So I can put you out of position real quick if you don't execute well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, really good advice. I like all those, all those times, to get down the line for sure. So any other skill sets you want to cover for this level player?
Speaker 2:I think you know Cross-Cut-A-Log is such a handy shot to have if you've got that unlock. I mean, I think it takes a net player out and then, like we're talking about, not many players like to take the ball on the riser out of the air and if you are playing against somebody that doesn't have that ability, then you can basically push them back at will with a good Cross-Cut-Log and that then can turn offensive for you. If I'm the baseline player and will your net and I lob Cross-Cut to the opponent and they back up, back up all the time you're activated for any short cross. So you know, having a difference in that log is it's not a defensive log, that is very much an up and down log to give us time to get back in the point. It's a lower arcing lob, more, I guess, like a moon ball that would push the baseline back and that's really what gets you involved.
Speaker 2:If you want to look for a poaching chance, because it's going to be really hard to drive that ball down the line the further back they go behind the baseline, or then I can come in and take it out of the air, if that's my intent, and then you can run that as, like a two ball pattern, we do get into a rally, I can lob Cross, look to come in and do what we said earlier with the drive volley or the swing volley, and take it out of the air and set myself up for some offense if I can't say you are. But that's the advantage of that Cross-Cut, lob takes the net player out and you're an opponent that doesn't like coming forward, then you can set yourself up.
Speaker 1:Okay. So if we're using that, obviously against an aggressive net player, that's going to be pretty effective. It's a good way to come forward, right? So you lob, you come forward. Either you have a volley or a swinging volley, or you can probably get all the way to the net in a lot of cases. Does it change for the Deuce versus Adcourt, since in the Deuce court our opponent at the net has a forehand volley in the middle. In the Adcourt their forehand volley is down the line, so we're going Cross-Court to a backhand. How does that change?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it definitely can. The Adcourt has more. I mean the Adcourt you'll have more success because that high backhand volley is not effective and then if you can get to the opponent's backhand you're setting up usually a weak ball, but on the Deuce side to a righty. I think a lot of people don't necessarily think about lobbing a little bit more center when they go across as well, which limits the angle. So that's something where you can lob down the set If you have that control. Obviously that's a little bit shorter of a court, so it's upper ball. But lobbing down the center of the court can give no return angle as long as the net player is not camped back on the service line with an overhead ready to kill your partner. But that's an option. That is an option. It's just a lot stronger of a shot over there with the forehand above the shoulder.
Speaker 1:Sure, yeah. And then I think, if you're taking it through the center from the Deuce court, you're trying to get to the baseline players backhand, which is an advantage. But I think one of the keys to executing that is not only the depth of the lob you have to be good at getting that depth right but also just studying and this is where communication with your partner comes into play studying how close that net player is to the net. Because if they, if your partner, can tell you between points hey, like during the rally, they are super close to the net, like go for the lob through the middle of the court and come in behind it and they're not going to have any angles, they're not going to be able to do anything. But if they are a little further back, obviously the lob's got to be even better, so it's a little bit riskier. So, um, so I wanted to ask about three more questions and then we'll do some rapid fire. Did you have any more skill sets you wanted to go over?
Speaker 2:I think there were some of the main ones that I had in the top of my head that we work a lot on. Okay.
Speaker 1:So we've talked a little bit about this. Actually, I'm going to skip that one, let's go. How do we win with a weak doubles partner? It's a very common question I get. I don't know if people who play doubles just have huge egos and they blame it all on their partners every time, or if it's really a thing, but, um, how do we win with a weak doubles partner?
Speaker 2:You can only take care, you know, take care of all the things that are in your control. And I think you've got to find a way to really boost your partner's confidence up. And I think sometimes you play with a weaker partner and they miss and you know you give negative body language because you want everybody else to know that you're the best player on the court and you're not the one that is making you guys lose or miss. So I think, like, being a good doubles partner means that you pick your partner up, because even when you have two level partners, you're going to need to boost each other's confidence, boost each other, um, in terms of, like tennis, what the goal is on the court, the tennis knowledge, what we're trying to do. But you have to take care of your serves. You have to take care of all your return points. Um, you don't have to do it all, but I think you do have to find and put your partner in a position where they can be successful. So what are their strengths? Maybe my partner's really weak at the net. Maybe we play a lot of two back and return. Um, maybe even we play two back on my second serve, where they're going to be attacked more. You know you make adjustments just to try and put them in the best position to use the skillsets they have and to hide, hide their weak ones.
Speaker 2:Um, the other thing I think that when you play with someone who's a little bit weaker and obviously they're going to be the target is you have to have so much more movement, you have to be so much more dangerous with your, your movement.
Speaker 2:Um, if, if I'm playing with a weak, weak player and I'm at the net that other team knows I'm going to be trying to poach, I'm going to be trying to get as many balls as possible, and you know they're then really acutely aware of my movement and they're ready to pull the trigger down the line when I abandoned my my side of the court. So I think that's where baking comes in the tongue, um, that's where you know educating your partner on really trying to keep the ball more in the middle of the court so that I had a chance to get it. You know things like that come into play. It is, you know, depending on the level difference, it is very hard to do, but I think you do have to put your partner in the best place to use their strengths and then different strategies to to sort of set yourself up to be as involved as you can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, totally agree. I think it starts with what, what she led with there, which is, um, build them up and have good body language. I mean, don't you know, don't, don't be negative if they miss a shot. Um, I see that too often and um, especially at our level, it's like, you know, this is adult, leaked in us. This is not, uh, we're not playing for money, most of us. So, uh, yeah, um, yeah, build them up for sure, um, okay. So if I gave you, let's say, one month with a, a, three, five player who's very timid at the net and we have to develop their confidence at the net what would you have them do for that month? And let's say they're doing six hours a week of practice?
Speaker 2:Okay, that's, that's plenty. Um, okay, first thing, we look at technique. We look at the way they move at the net. Um, we get them confident at defending themselves. I think all players need to understand how they defend themselves when the ball comes out of them.
Speaker 2:You're going to get hit at a lot in doubles, whether it's the poaching player or the baseline is coming after you. So you must learn how to defend your body with a backhand volley. Forehand volley doesn't defend the body, so a lot of players out there who are listening, if you're forehand volley dominant, you're not going to be able to protect yourself with that forehand volley. It's actually dangerous. So, um, that's number one is getting comfortable at the net. Um, then number two is just looking at technique making sure they're comfortable in a, in a neutral grip or very close to neutral grip as possible. And then you go through a progression of drills that you but you, you start slowly and you basically just build up the pace. I mean it's at some point you're going to have to get them comfortable with some speed coming in. But, um, yeah, I think it's tough. It's up to the technique fundamentals and using your progression to make a little bit faster and a little bit faster, and then you know, it's, it's, you know.
Speaker 1:I had a.
Speaker 2:I had a drill when I was growing up, where the coach would serve and at me from the baseline, not understanding the service line, you know. So at some point you do sort of have to get thrown into the fire and you realize, okay, I've got to keep my on the ball, I got to keep a wide base so they can get out of the way if I have to. And I have to track that ball, I can't, you know, close my eyes, turn my head. That's where I lose sight of it and that's where I'm in danger. But I think I've had a lot of players that are really not that confident at the net and they almost get really scared being up there and, um, I think doing that work to protect the body really helps with the confidence so much, and then they're not so worried in those tight encounters.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I like that serving uh serving at the net player for the baseline.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, it's like sink or swim.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. You know, if you and if you're a really good, I get a couple of D1 doubles players with a training block with me coming up next couple of weeks and we're going to do that through quite a bit. They'll be at the service line um, both of them at the same time and I'm just going to be ripping serves at the service line and they're going to be digging out first. All these and the pace is not going to worry them. They're going to get down low, use my pace. So it is a really handy drill and if you know you can take a serve coming from the you know a fair hide and pace you find on a ground throw.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the progression makes a lot of sense and I think I want the listeners to think about that, um, if they're trying to develop their own confidence. It's like you've got to be hitting a lot of these volleys to develop these defensive skills that you're talking about. Um, so you need to get a basket of balls or a ball machine or something and just go out there and have somebody feed at you or have the ball machine go at you and then, each week or every couple of weeks, just up the pace and up the pace, and up the pace. And, of course, you need to have the technique down, like you talked about as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's. It's so minimal though I mean I think people have to realize how much you get off just keeping the racket out in front and meeting in the middle If you can find the center of your racket. You get so much off that, off that ball coming in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely All right. So let's do a few rapid fire questions and then I'm going to let you go. Uh, what is your favorite tennis racket, or let's say, your racket of choice right now?
Speaker 2:Right now it would probably be the head gravity. I like the head gravity, the bigger head size. On returns, something I didn't factor in when I was playing. I played with a heavy small racket because I was all about holding serve. I refactored a lot of return games but I think the bigger head is a head gravity. Highest sweet spot has been nice, Awesome. Do you play with the pro?
Speaker 1:version.
Speaker 2:I do and I'll be honest, I think I've been in my bag. Sometimes I play with a wooden racket. It's fun yeah.
Speaker 1:What's your favorite tennis book?
Speaker 2:Favorite tennis book I would say. Winnie Ugly is the one that got me interested in strategy, and from a technical standpoint it would be Tennis2000, this one here Behind me. Yeah, that book's amazing If you can find it on eBay. It's actually pretty hard to find.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I haven't read that one. Tennis2000 by Vic Brayden Okay yeah, I've studied a good bit of his stuff, but I've not read that. What is your favorite tournament?
Speaker 2:I'll do your open. I've just got to be in there so much, and I've got to play in this course.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Are you going this year coming up?
Speaker 2:I'm not, but I would like to get back there in the next couple of years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think I'm going to shoot for 2025 as well. I went 2020 before, just before COVID, and absolutely loved it.
Speaker 2:It's such a great time for you there Melbourne. It's so inspiring for Tennis.
Speaker 1:Yeah, really nice. So last question how do we make doubles more popular?
Speaker 2:How do we make it more popular? We start to promote the times that doubles is played on the TV. That would be a good start For doubles players. It's pretty hard to pick when doubles is going to be played. It's sort of like a random occurrence when you see it on the television. So I think there's got to be something where we can promote doubles, especially at the higher levels, a little bit better, easier access for everybody to see it.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, better marketing, better TV coverage for sure 100% Awesome. Any final pieces of advice, requests of the audience, anything before we let you get.
Speaker 2:No, thanks for having me. You can find some of the stuff that I've done on Instagram. That's the place that I post most of my stuff, so it's Joel underscore, myers underscore Tennis. Shoot me a message. Let me know if you thought of the podcast. Will thanks so much for having me on. This is an amazing resource for doubles players, so I always recommend people listen to this podcast. I've learned a lot from you and as a medium for the knowledge that you've gotten on the internet, so thank you very much for doing this stuff Awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I really appreciate that a lot. Thank you so much and thanks everyone for listening. I'll link to everything in the show notes, including Joel's Instagram page and highlights, as well as his Twitter account and website. So check all that out, and thanks again, joel, for hopping on with us.
Speaker 2:Thanks, we appreciate it.