Sophie Chang is the 82nd ranked doubles player on the WTA Tour. She made the 3rd round of the 2023 US Open with Alycia Parks and has 1 WTA & 21 ITF doubles titles.
I sat down with Sophie at the 2024 ATX Open where she lost a close first round match (7-6 7-6) to the top seeds alongside Angela Kulikov. In this long conversation, we speak about the match, on court attitude, doubles strategy, and more.
You'll learn:
We discuss how to make doubles more popular as well.
There are some interviews when I can tell the interviewee is putting effort and thought into their answers. This was one of those. Sophie provides great insights into the life of a WTA player and actionable advice that you can use to improve your own doubles game.
See the shownotes for this episode here: https://www.thetennistribe.com/sophie-chang-interview
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**Join the #1 Doubles Strategy Newsletter for Club Tennis Players**
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Sophie Chang is the 82nd ranked doubles player on the WTA Tour. She made the 3rd round of the 2023 US Open with Alycia Parks and has 1 WTA & 21 ITF doubles titles.
I sat down with Sophie at the 2024 ATX Open where she lost a close first round match (7-6 7-6) to the top seeds alongside Angela Kulikov. In this long conversation, we speak about the match, on court attitude, doubles strategy, and more.
You'll learn:
We discuss how to make doubles more popular as well.
There are some interviews when I can tell the interviewee is putting effort and thought into their answers. This was one of those. Sophie provides great insights into the life of a WTA player and actionable advice that you can use to improve your own doubles game.
See the shownotes for this episode here: https://www.thetennistribe.com/sophie-chang-interview
-----
**Join the #1 Doubles Strategy Newsletter for Club Tennis Players**
**Doubles Strategy Courses** These video courses will help you play smarter doubles and make winning easier.
**Doubles Ebooks** These guides offer proven advice to improve your doubles strategy.
In this episode you're going to hear my conversation with Sophie Chang from the ATX Open. Sophie is number 82 on the WTA Tour in doubles. She made the third round of the US Open in 2023 with Alicia Parks. She has 21 ITF doubles titles and in Austin she lost in the first round in a very close match to the top seeds 7-6-7-6, with her partner, angelo Kulakov, and we talk a little bit about the match.
Speaker 1:And there was really two things that I noticed when I sat courtside and watched them play. Number one was Sophie is always smiling. She has a very positive attitude, so we talk about that, why we think that that helps her on the court. And then I also noticed that they played two back on Angelo's second serve. So she talks about why they started doing that and why they think that it helps their game, and that's really something that I feel like you can kind of take away strategically for your own game, depending on your doubles partner and the opponents you're playing against.
Speaker 1:We also talk a little bit about her singles career. So she's still kind of balancing this doubles and singles career, where her rankings are not really even, so she has to kind of figure out how to manage that schedule. We also talk about process versus goals. She really doesn't focus on goals too much, which I found pretty interesting. And then she shares some advice for playing big points, and this answer really surprised me. She focuses on something that, if you've listened to the podcast for a while, I actually recommend you never think about during matches. But she kind of reframed this for me in a different way, and it's something that I look forward to trying next time I go out and play in my next doubles match, and then at the end we, of course, talk about how to make doubles more popular.
Speaker 1:So I think you're really going to enjoy this episode. Sophie is one of those interviews where you can tell that she puts a lot of thought into each answer. She has a great personality and is really really thoughtful with all of her answers to my questions. So I think you're going to become a fan after listening to this and, without further delay, enjoy my long conversation with Sophie Chang. All right, we're here with Sophie Chang at the ATX Open. Sophie, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2:Hi Will, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:So yesterday you lost a close match 7-6, 7-6. And one thing I wanted to start with was there was a specific point, but you did this kind of throughout the match I think it was Angela's serve and you all are down 15-30. And you missed an easy volley and you all went down 15-40. And it was a big game. I don't remember specifically the game score. And you turned around and just smiled and you kind of sarcastically had some hand motion or something. Is that something that you've always had or is it something you've trained yourself to be really lighthearted or talk a little bit about that?
Speaker 2:I think by nature I am pretty lighthearted in most things in life, like I'm pretty laid back, chill those are the words I would use, but I've always kind of had a naturally smiley face. So I know I come across like that but I do have. I've had a history of having a little temper only in tennis because it means so much to me. Obviously Now it's my career and stuff. So I'm sure if you asked my coach and stuff that question he'd be like no, but I think the more that I find like, the more I can keep my big goals and dreams about this career in their place and make it about things I can control and stuff and kind of break down the game into a way where I can trust the process. That natural kind of happiness, if you will, definitely I've found comes out more in everything I do on court, which I love. I think it helps me play better, stay loose and also it just makes this whole career more enjoyable.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think that makes sense and I guess part of the process of just playing tennis is missing easy shots. Yeah so like you, might as well laugh about it. I think it's a great outlook, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think usually. Sorry, I didn't take that. I think usually if it's an error, that I, you know. As long as I know in my mindset like if I make an error, I know I can correct it, or I know I did the right thing, maybe, or I just have a plan in place like okay, I'm going to get after it the next time and try to do better, then it's very easy for me to just kind of let them roll off, you know.
Speaker 1:Do you have that same mindset when you're playing singles, or do you feel like you take it a little more kind of seriously?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 2:And you're a little more hard on yourself maybe no, I always had a tendency to probably be harder on myself in singles because, yeah, I tend to lean that way more of being placing the blame always on myself or things that I did wrong and kind of coming down on myself a little more negatively than what is necessary. And then so doubles always kind of helped me a little bit with that, because you have obviously someone out there with you who's on your team but also hopefully is a good friend of yours, and you're kind of in it together. So that naturally always made it a little easier for me to laugh things off in doubles. But in singles I feel I've come a long way and again it comes down to like, if I get myself into that right headspace before the match and I know what I'm working on, I know I'm getting better and I trust the process, then I stay pretty laid back in singles as well, or I try to. I shouldn't speak too soon. We'll see. I don't know if there are any racquets coming next week.
Speaker 1:So yesterday, like I said, it was a close match 7-6, 7-6. I wanted to dive into the strategy a little bit, but what did you think of the match overall?
Speaker 2:I um, obviously it was a hard breaker to lose it when it was that close and I felt like we had definitely some opportunities in both sets.
Speaker 2:I think specifically what I'm remembering is I think I was serving for the set in the second set at least, you know to um so like that's always really tough, you know, when you look at that aspect of a match like that. But I definitely did not. I left the court feeling pretty encouraged still because I felt like I did a lot of good things that I wanted to on court. Um and again I tried to keep the focus mostly on that. Like I thought, um, perhaps I had a few more errors in the first set on my end and I felt like I corrected a lot of them. You know, like I needed to get a little lower on some returns and started making more of them once I did that and also, um worked through some things at the net when I was playing net, because obviously, if anyone's seen us and I play doubles and just more of the net player and more of the baseline player.
Speaker 2:But, um, we've been working definitely on our you know a little bit on each of our weaknesses in that regard to, you know, make us more dynamic and well-rounded. So, um, again, like I felt like there was some improvements made on my end, like I got some good poaches and created some aggressive volleying situations on my end, which was I was really happy about. I think the only thing I kind of noticed was or I walked away a little unsure of, was my double faulting a little bit more. You know, I felt like, you know, if I like, if I had done the exact same match and not had some of those double faults, we would have at least made it to a third set, or you know um been in there, so that was maybe one of the things that I had a little more of a neutral to negative um like response to when I was walking away.
Speaker 2:But I try to keep it pretty focused on my process and my progress as a player.
Speaker 1:Do you think like the wind or the cold had anything to do with some of the double faults? It was a lot windier yesterday.
Speaker 2:It was definitely tough serving conditions and there were some double faults from, I think, most of the players. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I noticed a lot.
Speaker 2:Not as many as me, but, um, you know I've always been a more aggressive player in a bigger server, but hopefully, you know, I get some free points back. You know if I'm hitting some double faults, but, um, yeah, the balls here I feel are pretty heavy, the ones we're playing with at this tournament, and the wind does not ever make it easy and it was colder, so you know that also makes the balls not travel as fast. So you know, my some of my service errors were on kick serves, which you know, and some of them didn't. They went in the net, which you know. Obviously, with the cold and the wind and the heaviness of the balls, like that would make sense playing a role.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you mentioned, uh, angela is more of the net player. One thing I wanted to ask about is the two back on her serve. So it's something that I rarely see at the pro level club level players. I recommend it a lot, especially if there's like a super weak net player. Yeah, but most of y'all are. Y'all are so good at the net that you don't see it a whole lot, but can you explain the thought precepts behind it and why you do that?
Speaker 2:Yes, I can do my best.
Speaker 1:Explain it in Angela's words, and then her words, and then her words.
Speaker 2:Well, it's funny because we started doing that when we were like within one of our first two or three tournaments that we played together and it was on the ITF circuit and I should say like when I I have always felt really comfortable actually at the net when I'm starting on offense more, you know, and I used to play with another girl who's taller than me and, like you know, had a really big serve you know like possibly hit bigger than me a lot of the time, you know, from the ground, and so I was kind of more of the net player like in that circumstance. But I think my sometimes I think my neutral, defensive volleying skills, those are that's where I'm a little uncomfortable. I don't feel like I can, I feel like I'm telling my secrets here. I don't feel like sometimes I'm as natural at covering court at the net, you know, like a more neutral to defensive position at first, you know, to gain the advantage. So sometimes on the second serve, return, like especially at the WTA level, these girls are like amazing returners and stuff and it just.
Speaker 2:And then Angie also is, so she's a great baseliner, but she's so formidable at the net that we just kind of discovered, like, if I start at the baseline, I can cover three quarters of the court. I play singles, you know I'm completely comfortable doing that, and she can get to net. You know like and and it's hard to, you know obviously serve and volley on a second serve sometimes, but she has less court to cover. If I'm based on, I can't cover all that court when I'm at the net, even if I feel my hands are good or whatever you know. So that was kind of the idea was that she'd hit the second serve and we take away a, an easy target, you know like to try to get it past us while she can get up to net, and then we can be in the position that we want to be in, you know.
Speaker 1:Those, those really well articulate. I think you're under under crediting yourself for your doubles knowledge.
Speaker 2:But it was. It was definitely yeah, like it was something. I just came up with it at the time, like I didn't come up with it because I could put it into those words. At the time, I just was like, let's try playing big hitters on a clay court and I was getting I was nowhere near getting these returns that were coming back to me and I was like I'm just going to stay back, you know. And then it worked, and then we realized why it was so good.
Speaker 1:So I would imagine, on clay it's even like more so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was on. It's kind of yeah. Second serves.
Speaker 1:So they ran a lot of eye formation against you all yesterday. I felt like it was 80, 90% of the time it was a ton. How do you handle that? How do you think about returning against the eye formation?
Speaker 2:Should I keep going Go?
Speaker 1:ahead, it's fine.
Speaker 2:Oh, how do I feel returning to?
Speaker 1:returning against the eye formation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I am a big advocate for eye because as a returner I feel very comfortable returning always. I love returning, even though obviously people think about my serve and they're like, oh, you should serve first and stuff. I used to always be a person that wanted to return first because that was one of my favorite shots and I know that it just kind of adds a little bit of discomfort into the whole returning mix when you know you have this person in the middle of the court. You don't know which way they're going to go. That being said, I feel comfortable enough most of the time that I do. I think it helps my singles play. The fact that I still play singles helps me at least be comfortable returning in those situations. But I also, again, one of my strengths as a player is my kind of natural power on returns, and so sometimes at least I do feel comfortable enough that if I can just strike a clean ball I don't have to worry as much about where they're going. It's more about the quality of the shot.
Speaker 2:It's going to be a really tough ball in the eyes, and sometimes too, if I don't even necessarily pick a target, I'll either go instinctually or I'll go middle, because at least that cuts out most of their angles that they can get. It's not like I'm going to hit through middle and win the point on that, but at least sometimes I feel like that will. Just, they'll maybe hit the volley, but we can get back in the point that way, sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense. I think a lot of players I talk to and you see it like the returner's partner will signal and say like line or cross, yeah. But then a lot of players like to use that instinct and feel like, okay, if it's into my body, I need to come across my body more. Or if I'm stretched, I got to get line. So it's interesting hearing like how different people handle it differently.
Speaker 2:I think I've played with different partners and some do like to signal that more and some have asked me to signal it for them when they're returning.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:And then some don't. And I think, Especially if so for Angie and I, when she's at the net and I'm at the baseline, we kind of play those two positions pretty similarly. We're both very instinctual, so we haven't ever usually signaled for that scenario. And yeah, honestly, that is kind of how I play. Again, as an aggressive player, I usually am focused more on executing my shots than playing in the confines of like. I have to go to a certain target, because if I see something, I always feel confident that I can do it. So I tend to not signal that or go for that. I tend to usually just play off the ball?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't. I mean, from talking to so many people about it, I really don't think there's like a right answer. No, yeah, with some stuff there is like you should definitely be doing this instead of this, but in this case, I do think it's like very player specific and what you're comfortable with as an individual and a team.
Speaker 2:It's funny because I had a tough time recently. I was playing with a girl and she wanted me to signal for her because it really helped her return and I kept forgetting because I could not remember that like okay, every time we're in eye she wants to have like that signal and I felt so bad she finally just stopped asking for it. She was really nice about it, but I just could not remember for the life of me because I would be up at net being like, okay, I'm getting ready and I didn't remember that I was supposed to signal.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that's tough, because she can't like say oh, hold on server.
Speaker 2:Hold on between your first and second server. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So talk a little bit about. You're still playing singles as well. How do you balance the singles and the doubles, or singles? Ranking, I believe, is 352 as looked at this morning and then doubles, you're up in the top 100.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is very difficult. It hasn't been easy. I think my doubles was always a little higher than my singles, but not high enough that it was like I was never playing a whole different set of tournaments for doubles, and that was all the way up until I met Andge, and we had some really good results in doubles, and that was when we cracked top 100 together, and at the time, though, my singles ranking was around 250, I believe, and so close to like quality range for most of those tournaments, and that was in 2022. And I remember that, getting to the end of that year, I was really hustling to try to make, try to get my ranking up to you know, quality range of slams that I could be playing both, and I did it. I didn't take a preseason in 2022.
Speaker 2:I went and played in Andorra and Dubai in December, so I only had two weeks off after that and then went out to New Zealand, and, but I did exactly what I needed to do. I was like one of the three last ones into the qualities of Australian Open. It was a great experience. I had my best result in singles and a slam there, and almost qualified, but it was kind of sad because at that time, you know, I had started that year, that last year I started 2022 playing a 25 K you know, non slam and won it in singles and I had was defending 50 points and I got 30 for almost qualifying at the Australian Open, which was really hard and dropped, you know. Then out of scramble I got my range again in singles.
Speaker 2:And so this whole last year in 2023, it was I was trying to, you know, see if I could play both and get my, get my singles ranking up into that range. That would let me play the same tournaments for both and benefit from the rankings. And you know I just didn't quite have my at least my singles game together, I feel at the time to be successful at that. But I played a crazy year. I played 35 tournaments last year and that's without taking a preseason in 2022. So I was that's a lot, you know that was. That was too much, you know. Like you know, I'm pretty hearty like injury wise, so I didn't, you know I by the end of the year I did, my body did kind of break down a little bit, but that's a really unsustainable schedule, obviously, and it's been a really hard like process of decision making of. You know which tournaments to play and you know how to balance the two, but I I'm so like I love both and I love playing both, you know at events, like I'm.
Speaker 2:I'm a player that like I feel so complete when I'm in both draws and playing two matches a day and so it's really hard for me to like give up one. But it, you know, it hasn't been great, obviously for my singles ranking, especially, you know, having that drop into the 300s and stuff. But I don't know, I'm so hopeful that, like you know, at the end of the day, you know I have to make some decisions about scheduling. But if I keep focusing again on my own improvements and playing the tennis that I believe I can play, that you know, at some point it's going to pay off and I will be able to get, like the rankings up both of them into a range that I'd want to be at you know.
Speaker 1:Do you have any specific goals in mind for this year or like kind of targets you want to reach or plans on managing both?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Um, I don't usually set ranking goals or anything. Um, again, more process goals. I would love to get my serve percentages up a little bit because number one I think that's really important for both of my games, like you know, just my own ability to understand my serve and find my rhythm, always, you know, and again, first serve percentage and second serve percentage, you know.
Speaker 1:So you're talking about make percentage?
Speaker 2:Like, make percentage, yeah, because I mean, obviously you know when I make them, you know, like especially my first serve, it's got a good pace to it and stuff. Obviously I always want to hit it bigger because that's fun. But you know right now, like I know, that will help me win a lot of these close matches that I haven't quite pulled through. Um, and then also, you know, it helps the longevity of my tennis playing abilities to keep it shorter points, you know like for especially for my game style.
Speaker 2:I like short points. Um, that's a big goal for me if I had to pick one. Is you know like going, going after those serve goals and getting those percentages up? I think you know. But yeah, I don't usually pick ranking goals as much because I just kind of feel like that's you know I. I trust that will come with my level.
Speaker 1:Do you track a lot of your stats?
Speaker 2:Probably not as much as I should or I could.
Speaker 1:But you're looking like after each match at your serve percentage and stuff. I mean, yeah, but usually I know like I'm like, okay, this was a 30% or like a 40%.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think one actually. Yeah, this was in Rome, georgia, this year. I knew I had a really bad serving match but somehow won the match and this was indoor hard. Um, it was in three sets, you know it was very long. Um, and I did go back and look at I knew I was getting ready for doubles and I was like man I I had I must have had like a lot of double faults or and my service percentage must have been pretty poopy and I think I can't remember what my serve percentage was, but I had 18 double faults.
Speaker 1:Oh, that was cute. Who do you want to match?
Speaker 2:I want to match and I only had nine aces Like, so that's not a good, you know ratio, but because you know I've had um, I think I've played a match once where I had again like upwards of 18 double faults but I had, like you know, in the teens at least of aces as well, you know so that that's good.
Speaker 2:You know that's not good, but that's better. But, um, I think, yeah, sorry, what was your? I was tracking stats, yeah. And another one. I think, yeah, usually I have a picture in my mind of kind of what happens out there, so sometimes I'll know those stats a little bit yeah.
Speaker 1:There was a I can't remember who it was, but it might have been on the podcast but there was a coach I talked to at some point in the last year and he told me that he was tracking first serve percentage for one of his players and I think they maybe they had a disagreement or something, I don't remember. But he said, for like a month or two months or something, they decided to track the first serve percentage and then, also before the player got to see it, they'd ask him after the match what do you think your first serve percentage was and see how close it was to the actual number.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And like they would track it over the course of a month or so and they happened to underestimate it most of the time. They said it was not far, it was like maybe 3%, but on average, like they slightly underestimated it.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, yeah, so you might try that. I know I think I probably underestimate mine. You know, sometimes too, like I'll go out and I'll be like, but you could just have a little journal and like it you could figure that out if you underestimated or you underestimated it? No, definitely.
Speaker 1:It would be interesting to see if you do that, report back and on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we'll do, we'll do.
Speaker 1:So what about, like the next, like month or two? What's your schedule look like?
Speaker 2:Right now I'm supposed to go to Dominican Republic either tomorrow or the next day and I'm going to play singles there, maybe doubles it's a 25K Again. Like great competition there and like I want to play doubles, you know, like always because I love doubles. But like you know it's it is a situation where it's like, ooh, even if I did do really well and win that whole double story it's not going to help my doubles ranking at the time.
Speaker 1:But that's you know that's always.
Speaker 2:it's always good to have points, to defend points if you're losing them, you know so I'm considering it, you know.
Speaker 2:But I'll play either one or two events there, but definitely for singles, you know. That's why I'm going there. But there's two weeks back to back but I could come back and maybe play. I'm trying to decide right now whether I'll come back and play the Charleston 125 for doubles. I won't make singles there, and then I believe I have. I have it written out somewhere. I can't remember exactly what's next. I might have a week off or two weeks off and then be maybe. I think the Bogota, the Charleston 500 week is coming up, I think soon after that, or I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, charleston's just after Miami. Yeah, okay, so it's like the first week of April.
Speaker 2:It's like I might be starting that week and then there's a bunch of kind of higher level ITFs in the States that I'm looking to prioritize playing there quite a bit.
Speaker 1:Okay, what about? So? Today you're going to practice indoors luckily, since it's 40 degrees outside with Catherine Harrison, and she's focused on doubles for the most part, I believe. What are your practices look like right now? Are you mostly focusing on like baseline single stuff, or are you doing a combination, or does it depend on who you're hitting with?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it depends a little bit on who I'm hitting with and what tournament I'm getting ready to play. Obviously I'm going. I'm switching from doubles to singles right now, so I'll definitely be more focused on just getting back in the singles, making sure I'm in the singles rhythm movement. But I tend to mostly practice singles because usually if I'm feeling good on the singles court then that carries over more directly to doubles. For me, with the exception of like, I always kind of put in that extra work a little bit, I think, on volleys and stuff, because more so than I would in singles, because I think actually that could be a good addition more to my singles game too If I'm more willing to come in sometimes or serve in volleys or close out some points at the net. But mostly I do win points from just being an aggressive baseliner. So that's usually kind of what I'm practicing in the single scenario.
Speaker 1:What about today, specifically with Catherine? Do you all have like a plan going into it or we all get there and just all hit some?
Speaker 2:Sometimes I mean we don't okay. When I'm practicing with another player we don't usually communicate like before the practice, like, hey, what do you want to work on? Can we do this or that, unless someone really wants something done. I mean, I think the standard at these tournaments is usually like warm up, hit all the strokes and then go into points usually. But I usually and I think probably other players too have things running in their mind of what they want to work on, and then someone will get there to the practice, say if I want to hit a few extra volleys or can you do a little bit of movement with me where you know you would be around a little like if there's something like that, we'll say that to each other, usually at the beginning of the practice.
Speaker 2:Also, if it's like a practice like this, where it's between tournaments, you know, and it's not like we're getting ready to play the next one yet, you know, necessarily that's when I think we'll get more of those requests and they're like I want to do the specific drill or I want to do more of the specific shot, and then if, like, say, once I get to the Dominican Republic and I'm practicing the day before my match, no one usually asks for those types of things, usually from the players. It's just like warm up, play points, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, that makes sense. So I think I mentioned this before the before we started recording. A lot of the listeners are club level players, right? Do you have any? So this month we're focusing, or for the next, like six weeks, we're focusing on kind of mindset and the mental side of the game. Do you have any tips for playing well under pressure or playing good in tiebreakers? Well, anything that's worked for you Yesterday.
Speaker 2:Yesterday it's been working Other than yesterday. We lost two tiebreakers yesterday, no.
Speaker 1:We'll forget about yesterday.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I've had a actually a pretty decent record in in tiebreakers, I think, if you count over my career in doubles. But and I do take a lot of the do sad points and I like to take it. So I think I usually Hmm, I know it's such a big question Perplaying pressure points, like if you're talking like a do sad point or a match point or like that one individual point, for me I usually feel confident number one if I know my SHIT out there as in, I know a couple, one or two set cues that work for me. It could be different for every player.
Speaker 2:As I said, I'm very execution based on my strokes, so usually it looks like for me I'm like okay, on this return, I know I'm gonna get my hips turned quickly on the return either side, I'll be in my ready position. I'm ready forehand, I'm gonna turn like this. Backhand I'm gonna turn like that or something like that, or I'm gonna make sure that I stick it through contact, so something really simple like that that I know has been working for me and making my shots go in the court, because then when I can kind of lean into those cues, for me it's like I can almost have something to exaggerate and that's really helpful for me to have out put any nervous energy I have. It's like I'm just gonna do these things that work for me. I'm gonna do them the best I can on this point.
Speaker 1:So these are like physical cues For me yeah, but I'm more like that.
Speaker 2:There's other players that I think might lean into more of a strategy based one. They might say like okay, no matter what, I'm gonna take my strokes inside your inside strokes, like because that's my highest percentage.
Speaker 2:Or they might know I'm gonna like maybe someone favors a chip, or like you know they might say like I'm gonna throw up a lot because I know that you know this player is in eye formation up in that or you know, or whatever. So that you know. I think overall, like if you have something that you know you're comfortable with and you know you do well like leaning into that, like on the big points, it's like that is that's what I've seen has the best results. It's also more fun that way, like usually, because there is like kind of a confidence in the mindset that you want to take into those points that you're like I'm ready to win this point, you know, because most of the time the more free and aggressive player will or not aggressive, but the more free and confident player will win that point, you know like or will have the advantage in that point. And so if you're leaning into something that you're really comfortable with and you're like almost kind of proud of you know, like this is what I do on court, it's like you, then you kind of get that mindset more of like oh, it's showtime, like this is, this is what we play for, we've got the big point. I'm gonna do my strength, you know, and it's actually really fun, you know, and then you kind of go.
Speaker 2:That's kind of switched for me, like from going from the mindset of more like oh no, I'm scared of this big point. I don't want it to like I want this, I want to play, you know, like I want to show what I can do on this point. You know tiebreakers, there's more points, you know, in the like it's a procession of points. Obviously, I think usually before every tiebreaker this is something my coach in Maryland always told me that stuck with me from the very beginning is like, especially in a 10 point breaker. But you know, in any tiebreaker it's like most of the time when you get into a tiebreaker, whoever wants it more is going to have a big advantage.
Speaker 2:So, I definitely try to do a check in, like before every tiebreaker. That's like okay, you know, no matter what, like I'm never gonna, you know, I'm not gonna let anything bother me, I'm just gonna fight for every single point. You know I'm not gonna give anything up in that department and you know that always has worked well for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so like raise the intensity for like, yeah, short 10 minutes.
Speaker 2:You can't, like in a tiebreaker, it's like you can't if you make a mistake. You can make mistakes, but if you let it bother you, then you've made another mistake and that's already like a quarter of the time. So you know you have to be really on your, on your mental sharpness out there like, okay, you know I miss one. Okay, what am I going to do to make it better this next time?
Speaker 1:Yeah, one point is so two more questions for you and then I'll let you go. So you mentioned before we started recording that Angela has taught you a lot on the doubles court. What is maybe one to three things like big takeaways that you've learned from her over the years on the doubles court?
Speaker 2:So many things, I think, definitely seeing the geometry of the court and being able to see, like to focus this, because in doubles, you know, there's two players in the court, so it limits options more, whereas I so I kind of always came into, I came into our partnership doubles duo with being kind of just like this big hitter. That just was always like see ball, hit ball, you know, and I got away with it a little bit because I do, you know, hit a high paced ball, you know. But there were things, you know, adjustments in the geometry of the court. I'd say, like where she was, like hey, if you go here, you know, like if you don't make the shot perfectly, then we're both in trouble. But or if you go here, even if you don't make the shot perfectly, it's okay, I can cover you, you know, like little things like that.
Speaker 1:So that was one I think two is how did she show you that? Was it like in practice? She would like kind of illustrated on the court, or did she like write it in a notepad with a court?
Speaker 2:She did all of this. She'd kind of cost it was through. One thing that I always loved about our partnership is we would just spend hours like talking about things you know on the court and being passionate about like learning and you know together and stuff. And I think that was really special, it was really special times, and so she would always, when we would talk about it, that would like you know, like just kind of explore ideas of like two people talking about our games together. I would soak in that kind of knowledge for her, because she was always coming at it from that angle. But then, you know, then when I'd ask more questions, she'd either yeah, she's, I think, shown me on a notepad before she's also shown me on the court, she's probably drawn it in the clay before I draw a court in the clay and been like, look you're here, I'm here, Look at this, this doesn't make sense. Good, but yeah, I think that was one thing.
Speaker 2:Let's see, as I said, that play of me being back and her on her second serve and her coming up, that type of thinking I would say again this was something that I actually happened to just word out, but when I said it I thought it was just going to be a one-time thing for that day, and I always think my mindset was more like, well, I need to learn how to volley better, and that's the problem. So we'll play this match and since I can't volley today, I'm going to stay back, but then I'm going to learn how to volley and then it's going to be fine. And now she's definitely opened, broadened my scope a little bit of that. Yes, I can learn how to volley and I can keep working on defensive volleying and being comfortable up there, but that's never been. What made me special as a player is my aggressiveness in the baseline. That's always going to be more my strength. And for her, yes, she can feel so comfortable at the baseline and be an amazing basliner, but her X-factors are volleys. So just kind of broadening that you don't have to just try to be the best at everything, to be one of the best in the world, and you kind of want to know what your strengths are and play to your strengths.
Speaker 2:I think that's helped me in singles too, like that's my mindset.
Speaker 2:So that's one thing as well, and then okay, this is a very specific thing compared to the other two.
Speaker 2:And now I'll notice it in people like if I help my coach teach any doubles clinics or things like that, and when I was at the net and my partner's at the baseline, I was always kind of taught or under the impression that my eyes would be just like straight ahead and like looking at the baseliner in front of me and she kind of taught me that you can get a cue of when you can move forward and be aggressive on the volley if you look at the other volleyer. So as soon as you see that they don't cross to take a ball, then you can move it. You don't have to be waiting to cover that. And that sounds really silly, but I didn't know that. It was like a game changer for me to be able to. It was something I had to learn because I was so used to just always kind of looking straight ahead and then waiting to move off of when my opponent struck the ball. But then I don't make.
Speaker 1:That's great advice. Yeah, that was one. Yeah, you can kind of mirror that other net player. So, based on the coach, you kind of mirror them and like come backwards with them, yeah, defend better, Like if you think, if you're not sure whether they're going to take the volley yet, you can.
Speaker 2:you know, you can look at, be looking at them and be waiting closer to the service line to cover that middle, but then, as soon as they don't, you've been, yeah, get aggressive.
Speaker 1:That's not obvious at all. I think most I would say most club level players don't do that at all. And then even out here, like I've been watching for that specific thing the last few days and not everybody's doing it, like even at this WCA 250 tournament, like some of the players are not looking at the other net player.
Speaker 2:Like they're looking at the baseline. I mean, and I still forget sometimes, yeah, yeah, sometimes I'll be like, oh, what was I doing? I wasn't even looking at that. It takes a conscious effort, for sure.
Speaker 1:But it's so helpful once you start to start to do that. So last question how do we make doubles more popular?
Speaker 2:Let me think about this one for a second, because that's a good question and I think there's a lot of options and opportunity for that. I just want to think about, like some of the best ways off the top of my head. I think marketing it is really important, obviously, like some of the other players and I have definitely talked about like how much the social media marketing on pickleball really expanded that sport really quickly.
Speaker 2:Like because, again, I don't I'm not even a big sport, I'm not like my Instagram feed, like the stuff I look at on Instagram are really silly memes and things like that. And I remember when pickleball was taking off somehow, that was like all over my feed and I never interacted with any of those posts or like any of them and I you couldn't get away from it. You know there were like things, you know, and maybe some of them were more cheesy and they were on TikTok, which I don't know much about TikTok but or some of them were very entertaining stuff or like kind of hyping up the pickleball points and stuff. But I respect that. Like it made it look, you know, like a video that people wanted to click on. You know whether it was like the headline or the title of the video or the caption, or you know something like electrifying point. You know stuff like that.
Speaker 2:But I think like just kind of I mean, that's the first thing off the top of my head I would say is like social media and marketing it. Like you know, doing interviews with these doubles players, like getting to know them, you know, like showing their personalities, showing the really fun points you get out of doubles. You know like, cause, like, even if you were at a match yesterday. There were some crazy points in there that we had.
Speaker 2:You know that you can't get in singles as much yeah yeah, and I'll talk to people like I can't tell you like every week at any club I play at that has members you know they're watching most of the time, like if I mentioned that I play doubles or I'm there playing doubles, they're like oh, you know, like I like watching doubles better than singles, and I know that's not for everyone, but like you know, I think it's it is different, like it's a different style of game. It's. I think there is like a large fan base that are really interested in those doubles points. It's faster, it's like really quick, you've got two people on the court there's more things that can happen.
Speaker 2:So, like I think, just opening up that I don't know like that media for it, like and, as I said, like showing more doubles and then showing points of doubles on social media or places where people are looking for it. You know whether it's highlights on TV, you know like. I don't know. Again, I'm not. I don't know much about the sports world being a professional athlete as much as I should have.
Speaker 2:But, like wherever they show highlight reels, you know put some double stuff in there and then and then again, yeah, like make it fun, like get to know the players, get to interact, you know, see them you know in interviews or interact with them doing fun activities. I think that that helps build fan base.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah, I think that was recently. I read an interview with Jamie Murray talking about doubles I don't know if you saw that and he he said that they had looked at the. It was either the Instagram feed or the Twitter feed, for it was either like Miami open one of the big tournaments and they looked at every single post to figure out if it's singles or doubles and it was less than 1% of the posts were about doubles. And it's more than 1% of the tournament. For sure, yeah.
Speaker 2:Like it's. I know I just this also kind of thought, just this thought became to me just now like most yeah, most club players do like actually primarily play doubles, and that is also a reason I feel like pickleball has been doing so well as to is that it more people feel like it's easily accessible to jump right in and learn how to play, and maybe just not that you know it's like doubles and tennis, tennis doubles is sometimes easier for people to play, you know, with two people, just having two people on the court and playing in that style. So maybe like also doing more you know like outreach, like doubles clinics and stuff, I would think you know like because it's like if these people, if people are primarily playing doubles and they get to interact with you know pro players that are also playing a bunch of doubles and you know doing doubles oriented stuff, then you know, maybe it would make it more. You know like more people want to play a sport, the more I think they'll watch it. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely Awesome. Well, sophie, thanks so much for coming on. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and see you in a minute.