Doubles Only Tennis Podcast

Nicole Melichar-Martinez, Ellen Perez, & Coach Carlos Martinez at Indian Wells

• Will Boucek • Episode 165

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0:00 | 29:42

Nicole Melichar-Martinez and Ellen Perez are the number 7 & 8 ranked doubles players in the world. They recently made the finals at the WTA 1000 in Dubai and followed it up with a WTA 500 victory in San Diego.

This conversation with them and their coach, Carlos Martinez, took place a day after their round 1 win at Indian Wells. We chat about that victory and their season so far.

I asked them:

  • What they've learned about each other over the last two years as a doubles pairing.
  • What Carlos has improved on as a great coach over the last few seasons.
  • What one change they would make to doubles.

They each share a tip for playing better in pressure moments and during tight matches as well.


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Speaker 1

You're about to hear my conversation with Nicole Melicar Martinez and Ellen Perez and their coach, carlos Martinez. Nicole and Ellen are number seven and eight in the world in doubles. They recently won the San Diego title and this conversation is on their off day between their first and second round at Indian Wells. Before I dive into kind of the topics that we cover during this conversation, I wanted to just give a couple of quick shout outs. I've been at Indian Wells for a little bit longer than I had initially planned.

Speaker 1

I helped out with an adult tennis camp for club players for three days that Jordan put on, so shout out to Jordan for putting on an awesome camp. Julia was one of the students there who I got to watch a little bit of doubles with, so shout out to her. Dan and Nancy I found at Indian Wells by chance for two years in a row. They're big doubles fans and big supporters of the show as well. Pushkar is somebody if you follow us on Instagram you've probably seen us reshare a lot of his photos over the years and he found a couple of people in some watch more doubles shirts here at Indian Wells. So it's been a ton of fun being here. It's really maybe the best doubles tournament in the world. The crowds at the doubles courts are always really, really packed and really excited, so it's been a ton of fun and I just wanted to kind of give a few quick shout outs there before I talk about this conversation with two of the top 10 doubles players in the world.

Speaker 1

So we talked about their first match. They won the first set 6-0 and then got down 1-5 in the second set and they explain something that they did at 1-5 to help kind of get back some of that momentum that I think you'll be able to take away for some of your own matches. We also talked a little bit about scouting, especially since they play a lot of these teams pretty consistently. Most teams they face they've probably seen before, so how much do they weigh this particular match versus matches that they've played against them in the past? We talked a little bit about Indian Wells, their favorite things to do. We actually played golf the day before. They were nice enough to invite me to play golf with them, which was a ton of fun. And then we discuss their season overall. They're also coming up on two years as doubles partners, so I asked them how or what something they've learned over the last couple of years as partners, and then something that their coach, carlos, who's there with us, who you'll also hear from has improved over the last couple of years. And then we go over some tips to improve your mentality and your execution on big points and during tiebreakers.

Speaker 1

So as I'm recording this intro, it is Wednesday the 13th and they won their second round, also in a 10 point tiebreaker, and they're about to play their quarterfinal match this afternoon. So they're doing something right in the tiebreakers. They won a lot of them recently and they share their favorite tips for that. And then I asked them a rule change that they would make for doubles. So a bit of a lengthy intro there, but this is a really fun conversation that I think you'll get a lot out of strategically and then get to know Nicole and Ellen and Carlos a little bit as well. So, without further delay, enjoy this conversation with Nicole Melicar Martinez, ellen Perez and Carlos Martinez. All right, everyone, we're here at Indian Wells with Nicole Melicar Martinez, ellen Perez and Carlos Martinez. Welcome back y'all.

Speaker 2

Thank you, happy to be back.

Speaker 1

So I wanted to start not with tennis, but with golf actually, so we got to play golf yesterday. I think, ellen, you're probably best suited for this. Give the listeners one tip for improving their golf game.

Speaker 3

I don't know. I don't feel like I improved at all. While we're going through the nine holes that we did, I learned that I need to have the ball kind of lined up with my front foot. I was more in the center and I was cutting it hard to the right, so I felt like I made small adjustments and I also aimed more left so that to account for the right.

Speaker 1

There we go Aim more left. So yours first match 6046105, I believe. Kind of some ups and downs in the match, A solid tiebreaker, it seemed like. What did y'all make of the match so far, Overall?

Speaker 2

I think we played an almost flawless first set. I think we're just very sharp, making a lot of returns, making a lot of first serves, just very simple patterns, but just executing very well. And the second set I actually thought we played well, despite the fact that we were down 5-1, I think it came down to just a couple of loose errors and sloppy mistakes in just very bad timing on the no add points and stuff. But I think at the when we were 5-1 down, we were like no, we should. Ellen did a great job of like let's get this momentum back. If we're going to lose a set, let's at least try and get some momentum before the tiebreak and we did get three of the next four games and then the tiebreak. I felt we had a clear game plan of what we needed to do. We just need to focus very hard and execute it.

Speaker 3

Yeah, I thought very similar. I thought the first set like she said, wolf Lawless we played very well. We also had a very high first-rate percentage. I think in the second we realized that we dropped on that a little bit and that just gave them a little bit of a chance to start some points and create a little bit of pressure. And you know, because it's so, the first set was so easy a little bit you kind of almost want to replicate it and then that makes it a little more stressful and I think we just missed a few easy ones and just it got a little closer than it needed to be. But we always felt like we were the maybe the better team and that we would get it back. But yeah, sometimes you can always feel that and sometimes still slips away. So I think we did a good job of just recuperating and just playing the patterns we wanted and just focusing a little harder.

Speaker 1

Any comments Carlos.

Speaker 4

No sure, I mean I from the coaching box here. Yeah, the girls summarized it very well. And yeah, something to pay attention sometimes is the momentum shift. How easy can it change from one set to the other? And especially even when you're dictating a couple of those no add points give life to the opponents, and sometimes in doubles that's big shift, you know. So always have to be careful with those timing, with those times where maybe it slips out a little bit, but then they did a good job getting it back together again.

Speaker 1

So your second round opponents will be the winner of a match that's later today. Nikki, it sounded like you might go back to the hotel and watch it from there. How focused are you typically on when you're in this situation? You're already through the next round and your opponents are going to play. How much emphasis do you put on watching that match and trying to take away stuff from that versus kind of what you already know about them? Talk a little bit about that.

Speaker 2

Yeah, definitely there's a difference between watching it live or watching the rerun. If you watch the rerun, you already know who won, so you can focus more on that team, whereas if you're watching it live you kind of have to pay attention to all four players because you don't really know, maybe unless it gets towards the end of the match who's probably going to win. But yeah, it's, I like to look through my notes and see if I've played them, what patterns maybe work well and what haven't, and then see if maybe that still looks valid on the court, if their backhand return isn't good or just anything that I know from the past, and see maybe how they're doing on it, and then maybe try and notice any new pattern, something that they're doing well or struggling with, and see if I can pick up on those.

Season Reflections and Tournament Activities

Speaker 3

Yeah, I think. Similarly, I prefer to watch kind of the match footage afterwards, just so I can narrow my focus exactly on serve placements, where they're returning kind of what they're doing If it's a team that's obviously not played much together. Or, yeah, I will try and watch the matches that they're playing this week. More so, if it's a team that's kind of played a few tournaments, we'll kind of look back and look for patterns over different events. But yeah, I think it's different conditions always and different, you know, different teams that they play. They might actually play to suit them rather than what they normally do. So we always take it as a bit of a grain of salt and just kind of play around our terms and then just keep certain things in mind. I think that's how we always approach when we play a team.

Speaker 1

Yeah, that makes sense, Karel. Is there any comments on that? Scouting opponents?

Speaker 4

Well, definitely again, you tend to look for the latest tendencies of the teams, especially the ones that you're going to play. It's always a good advantage to maybe have that time to see and analyze maybe both teams at the same time, because you might play them next week. So you always have to have something in mind in terms of the coaching side of it. But yeah, no more than anything, just one match at a time and then we try to focus and find the tendencies to play with our strengths and then accommodate for take, you know, like the weaknesses for our advantage.

Speaker 1

So you've had a few days off here. What is something that maybe, if somebody's listening and coming to Indian Wells for the first time or maybe they've been here a few times what's something that they should do outside of the tennis?

Speaker 3

I mean there is a few things to do. Obviously there's the outlets kind of close. I know I've in the past gone to those. We obviously played golf the other day some really nice golf courses. You know the tournament here gives us some movie tickets. There's Nobu on site and then, yeah, I think it's a really nice place to even go and hike a mountain and do things like that. If you can find time between playing. I think those things are really cool to do and just different. Not every week you can go and do things like that. So that's kind of what we've done. But yeah, you obviously got to somehow maintain some energy and not overdo it at times too.

Speaker 1

Sure, nicole, do you have a kind of favorite thing to do? Offsite here.

Speaker 2

I wouldn't say favorite, but a couple years ago I did go over to Joshua Tree National Park and it was beautiful. So that's, I think, something that everyone should maybe go and visit at least once.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I still haven't done that.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I get into nature. I've never taken the tram up the mountain. I would love to do that. So, yeah, just getting into it with nature, I think is really nice.

Speaker 1

So I want to step back and kind of look at the season overall for y'all. So we've got first round lost. First round lost final first round, first round, final title. It's been kind of you win the first round, you're into the finals or you lose in the first round. What has, I guess, changed since those first few matches? What do y'all make of the season kind of overall?

Speaker 2

I wouldn't mind following that pattern at least this week. Yeah, no, I think anyone, any team, is always very vulnerable in the first round. I think you always have first round nerves. You have to get used to the conditions and I think it's fair game for everyone, no matter what. I think in the history of Tennessee the biggest upsets you always see early. I think the later the tournament goes, the more rhythm you get. I think it's harder and harder to beat the top teams or top players. Whether it's singles, doubles makes, doesn't matter. So yeah, I think it's really important for us to always be sharp and ready and try and really somehow figure out a way to get over that hump. Even the other day in our match I mean it could have gotten a bit ugly, but we did get it in that tie break. But yeah, it just goes to show, especially in the format with the no ad scoring, anyone can beat anyone if you sometimes maybe get a little lucky.

Speaker 1

Right. Yeah, a lot of the first round losses have been pretty close, and that makes sense with the conditions. Like as you kind of get more used to the conditions, the top teams will kind of rise to the occasion. I guess a little more so Because there's a little bit less variables.

Improving Team Communication and Mental Strength

Speaker 4

I think definitely to complement a little bit what Niki just said first rounds normally again, trying to get the rhythm, trying to get back used to the conditions, and definitely normally also when you're at seeded team or when you're at top team, there is a little bit more pressure on you and normally your opponents are playing with a lot to win and really not much to lose. So they tend to play very loose, very easy, and then the pressure falls on you. So it's important to learn how to maybe control those emotions a little bit and then try to get through them. It doesn't matter how, just getting through it does the job and then from there on kind of like releases some pressure and let you play free. That's why sometimes for us first rounds are very important, because it's a lot of pressure. Sometimes we want to do well again, we're playing well, we're feeling well. So sometimes all those emotions is you want the result, but controlling it and getting through it is important.

Speaker 2

I do want to comment on one more thing. Typically, the teams I've tended to beat us early have done well, like in Adelaide, garcia, mladenovic, they made the final, and Abu Dhabi, watson and Noskovac, they made the final. Same in Doha Dez and Caroline, they made the final. So I think even if we do lose early, we tend to lose to a team that has good quality and goes well, Just a tough draw kind of.

Speaker 3

Yeah, I mean, there's plenty of bomb draws, as they say. There's people in there that you know they're very good but obviously unseeded, and there's people, yeah, if you manage to draw one of those, it can be extremely tough as a first round. You know, you're a little nervous, maybe you haven't settled into the conditions and I think all those elements play into it, make it a little bit more of a level playing field. And yeah, when you feel uncertain, it's never easy to just execute all the time. So once we kind of get the roll on and we kind of, you know, get that first win, we feel really good. But yeah, there is very good teams out there who are dangerous and can, you know, play into that first round problem.

Speaker 1

What is something you all have played together for almost two full years now. Is that right? What is something you're better at now as a team than you were, say, like a year and a half ago, when you were like six months in?

Speaker 3

I feel we're always evolving, actually as a team. You know we get more comfortable and we really know what each other's patterns are, what you know, when a certain ball kind of goes in the court, I know what Nicole's capable of doing, what her best shot from that spot is and kind of I can lean on it like, ok, she's out of position, I'm going to have to cover here whatever it is. So I think that's important. But also communication. You know, throughout this whole partnership there's been times where we're not either like happy with one another or there's certain things we want to improve on or change.

Speaker 3

And I think we've had very good open communication and being able to, you know, respect one another, evolve and, you know, hopefully help each other. That's like the biggest thing. We're both in it together. We both really want to do well for one another. We're, you know, great friends first, most before even you know, teammates. I think that's the important part and we both get that. So I think that's what makes this, you know, such a good team. And yeah, we're always looking for ways to improve ourselves.

Speaker 2

Yeah, something I think that we've both improved upon. I think we've become better returners, I think, if you look back on our first matches together, first few months, I think, generally speaking, obviously we can have up and down days, but I think I think returning has become a better strength of ours which can hopefully maybe make us more dangerous. And I think just, yeah, understanding the spaces of the court. I know, just like Ellen said, you know a certain ball is coming Like if I know, if she gets that sit her forehand, she's, she's going to blast it through someone at someone. So yeah, I think, yeah, just really just evolving and understanding each other.

Speaker 4

So you know, I think seeing them a lot of the mental evolution has been also an improvement. Obviously, like everything, the longer you're with someone, the better you get to know them, the better you, hopefully you get to communicate. And a key of it has been, as Ellen said, the communication, the openness to maybe work on things, to be able to get feedback, give feedback. You know I'm working on it because at the end again, we're all here for a reason and we want to win and we want to do the best that we can, and for that sometimes you have to be able to be mature enough to understand certain things and then be able to move on and be able to work on certain things, and that's everything At the end of the day. You just have to put in the time, you have to put in the work. You have to understand your weaknesses, understand your strengths and then from there go and work on them with an open mind, and I think that's something that definitely has improved in both of that.

Speaker 1

What so? This is a question for both or either of you. What is something Carlos has gotten better at over the last, say, 18 months?

Speaker 2

Well, definitely not serving, does he need to step away.

Speaker 1

Do you need him to step away for this part?

Speaker 2

No, I think just overall understanding us that if we feel we need something because I think sometimes he has something in mind that he wants us to do but if we're maybe not quite feeling it that day, I think he's done a really good job of like adapting more to us, because there are some coaches out there that are all about them which he is not that type of coach.

Speaker 2

So I think his just adaptability and just understanding, like when to step in, when to step back, I think he does a great job of that, yeah.

Speaker 3

I was going to agree with that. I think, you know, after moments of hard losses and things like that, I think bringing the team back together, you know, having those conversations, I think also just knowing what we each need individually. You know, sometimes there's certain things that I might need more than Nikki and Nikki might need more than me, and I think he's able to separate us really well, even the different personalities. I think it's not easy to be a coach and be able to understand how best to communicate with your player. I know, for me, I'm very laid back and sometimes it's the right time to tell me like all right, like get serious, ellen, and sometimes it's the right time to be a bit more bantery with me and yeah, and obviously with Nicole, just a bit more serious, I would say, and I think he does a really good job of balancing that and, yeah, taking in feedback and just, you know, working with where we're at on that day and things like that, and I think that's important.

Speaker 1

So this month, where all of our tennis tribe content is focused on kind of the mental game playing well under pressure, winning more tiebreakers coming out, you know, focused and sustaining that focus over matches so I want to hear from each of you maybe one to three kind of tips to improve your mentality on the court and you can choose from any of those, whether it's deciding points, tiebreakers or something to get focused before the match. Maybe that just works for you specifically that the listeners can use as well.

Speaker 3

Um, I would say one thing we've spoken about a little bit in. Nikki's said that this has worked for her in the past and actually really agrees. Right before a point like really activating the legs, like jumping up and down and kind of bringing that blood Blood flow in, I think that kind of gets you ready for the point, kind of eliminates a little bit of nose, and I think that's kind of one thing I've thought about. Two is very, being very clear with our game plan, going into it, especially into tiebreaks, kind of what's worked, what hasn't worked, and just really trusting it. And three, just backing our shot.

Speaker 3

I think that's been an important part for us. Obviously we you know you see the net player move a lot and you know you kind of think you have to do more, and we've realized the more that we just like pick our target and tell our partner hey, I'm going here on this one and just backing that our quality is going to do the job for it, and then, if not, you know your partner knows that person's going there, so you can kind of be ready at times. So I think those are kind of the three key things that I've kind of thought about more recently.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I like that because I think especially for like a lot of the listeners at the club level they see that they're going to be ready for the next game. They see that net player move and try to kind of swing a little bigger or go for a bigger angle or change direction down the line and they miss when in reality the player that's at the net that's moving probably doesn't have the volleys to. You know, put something away every time against a quality ball. So if you just stick with that kind of solid shot a lot of times the net player will just miss the ball anyways or give you another shot.

Speaker 2

I like that a lot, yeah. And then for me I would say, picking like a certain play or a certain pattern that, like you feel you know you own or you know you're really comfortable with, because at the end of the day, if you can execute it well and you're comfortable with it, I think your percentage goes up of you know winning the point or at least doing the right thing, putting them in an uncomfortable position. Or also, when you're serving, hit your favorite serve, maybe don't worry as much about you know them returning and or something like if you know you do something well, trusted.

Speaker 4

Well, definitely one thing that maybe both of them said is sometimes being able to control the over thinking. When we're in under pressure situations we tend to make those situations bigger than what they really are. A lot of the times we have hit already that shot, we've been already in that position, but sometimes the stress of the moment makes you think a little bit more of that play than what you really need to. So trying to be able to kind of like focus, bring the focus back to you and maybe changing that pattern of thinking too much and actually just focusing on what you really need to do in your technique or physically and in your execution might help you find that relaxation and execute it better to put that much pressure on yourself.

Speaker 1

Yeah, is there something you can kind of tell yourself to ease that pressure and realize that the moments.

Speaker 4

There's different tactics, different approaches that different players have done, like if you've heard, for example, the top players such as like Rafa or Nole and all that that they just focus on their performance and then, through consistent re-engineering of their thoughts, they've been able to actually treat almost every point the same way, instead of result based, more like the way, the things that I can do, instead of how is it going to go.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 4

So maybe try to build on that pattern. Once a thought comes to you or anything, just reinforce it and try to just take the risk and be comfortable with it more than maybe just again putting your emotions out there not too much.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So one last question for you all. Usually at the end I was asked how do we make doubles more popular? But I think I've asked both of you that already, so there's been obviously a lot of chatter. Jamie Murray had his interview recently about doubles being in kind of a weird spot. If y'all could make one rule change for doubles, what would it be?

Speaker 2

Hmm.

Speaker 3

Doubles. I would say the most important is probably the juice points. Longer juice Like I don't love Noad, I think Grand Slam format, when we can play advantage scoring, I think that favors the better teams. Yeah and yeah, that would probably be number one. Otherwise the other, just unique one, would be, no more. Let's just to keep the game going faster, as I just make the game longer with adding the advantage to the score line. But yeah, I think those two things.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I like that. I think the Noad let's, especially because I think from a fan experience, right, I think if you want to make doubles more popular and more engaging, like if somebody's new to tennis and coming for the first time, they see the let and they're like, okay, now I have to sit here for another like 15 seconds before they start and that time adds up and people can get bored with it.

Speaker 2

I saw a stat from Australian Open and they counted up the amount of hours.

Speaker 1

Oh yeah, I heard about this.

Tennis Rule Change Discussion

Speaker 2

Because of let's, and it was more than a day of play of time wasted Over all the matches at AO. So I think it's just such a waste of time, but I think they should. If they're in the schedule, I think they should have a doubles match on the bigger stadiums. You know, let's say there are five matches on the stadium, one here in Indian Wells. Have one of those five matches be a doubles match every single day.

Speaker 2

The same thing with stadium two, stadium three, like put the doubles matches on the bigger courts. That's what I would say. If you really want to promote it, put it in a TV slot, put it on a big court. Like, really promote and put it out there.

Speaker 1

Yeah, and this is the place to start with that to how to add, because pretty much I haven't been out there today. I think the doubles is just starting, but I was here the other day. There was standing room only for every doubles match I was at, so it's this would be a great place to start doing that.

Speaker 4

And you said Will. I think Indian Wells has a lot of doubles fanatics. This is one of the best places for doubles and to get the exposure outgoing, because they're in all the matches. You normally see a lot of people attending the doubles. So definitely bring in a little bit more awareness to the players and the competition and then taking advantage of places like this to get the names out there and then get the teams to be known.

Speaker 1

Yeah, but one rule change. What would you make if you could only make one? And it can't be their answers.

Speaker 4

Right, they said everything that we normally would discuss. The 10 point tiebreaker I think it's exciting. I mean I actually wouldn't get rid of it. I think it's always tough, it's always put you in your nerves. So I guess for people it's good to watch the 10 point tiebreakers. Yeah, maybe in tournaments like this where you have so much time. I mean if it doesn't rain or anything like that. But then you can definitely add mixed doubles and then make it more entertaining or like more of a quick format mixed doubles would be fun also to watch.

Speaker 1

I like mixed. Yeah yeah, that's a good idea. Awesome y'all. That's all I've got for today. Thank you for joining me.