Doubles Only Tennis Podcast

Greg Moran Interview: The Truth About Tennis

• Will Boucek • Episode 181

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Greg Moran has coached tennis for over 45 years and specializes in the recreational player. He's a member of the Wilson Advisory Staff, the Cardio Tennis National Speaker's Team, and the USTA's Coach Developer program. He's also written several books and in this conversation we discuss his latest, The Truth About Tennis: The Definitive Guide for the Recreational Player (affiliate link).

We discuss:

  • Why most adult tennis players get stuck at the same level.
  • The difference between 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, & 4.5 USTA players, including how to level up.
  • Exactly how often you need to practice to get better.
  • Why Greg has never worked with any of his students on power.
  • What you can and cannot learn from the pros.
  • and more...

Club doubles players serious about improvement will get a lot out of this conversation and Greg's book. Stay till the end when Greg makes a special offer for listeners.

Contact Greg at gmoran[at]4seasonstennis.com and purchase The Truth About Tennis (affiliate link).

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Interview With Tennis Coach Greg Moran

Speaker 1

You're about to hear my conversation with Coach Greg Moran. Greg is a member of the Wilson Advisory Staff, the Cardio Tennis National Speakers Team and the USTA Coach Developer Program. He's been coaching tennis for over 45 years and he really focuses on the recreational adult club level player and he has a new book out that I've been going through called the Truth About Tennis the Definitive Guide for the Recreational Player, and in this book he has some testimonials and words of praise, as he calls them, from Jorge Capostani. As he calls them from Jorge Capostani, he's also an author of previous books that have been mentioned, by Chris Everett, tracy Austin, matt Svilander, luke Jensen, who's been on the podcast before, and Vic Braden, and the foreword of this book is from Rick Macy, who I had on the podcast back in December, and we go through the contents of the book, or at least part of it. It's a very in-depth, comprehensive book, but it is a simplified form of tennis improvement. It will really make things easy for you if you do get your hands on a copy. So in this conversation you're going to hear Greg's story how he got into tennis even though he was pretty skeptical as a kid who liked basketball and football and baseball a little bit more.

Speaker 1

We also talk about coaching in tennis. So what got him hooked on coaching, what the problems are with tennis coaching today and how you can find a good coach. We dive pretty deep into that topic. Then we cover some different topics from the book. So he has one chapter entitled Nothing Will Work If you Don't, where he goes over the amount of work you actually have to put in to see improvement. He's very specific with this. It's a certain amount of days per week that you need to improve. We also talk about what we can learn and what we cannot learn from the pros. We discuss the benefits or lack thereof of focusing on power to add power to your game. We also talk about eye formation. At what skill level should you implement something like that common issues people run into at the 3.0, 3.5, and 4.0 level, and then how to combat those issues and improve your game, and a lot more.

Speaker 1

Greg, you can tell he's been coaching for a long time because he has all of these little nuggets and phrases that he says that are very, very helpful, and I know you'll get a lot out of this conversation. So, without further delay, enjoy this interview with Greg Moran. Hey, everybody, welcome to the show. Today we have Greg Moran on, author of the new book the Truth About Tennis Greg. Welcome to the show. Today we have Greg Moran on, author of the new book the Truth About Tennis Greg. Welcome to the show. Thank you Well. Thanks for having me. So for people who aren't familiar with you or your work in the past, tell people a little bit about yourself, who you are, what you do.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I'm a tennis lifer. Started playing very young I'm 64 now Started playing when I was nine. I grew up in a small town in Connecticut and wasn't really interested in tennis too much. This was late 60s, early 70s, before the big boom. But then we were fortunate enough to be members of the local country club and my parents talked me into taking a lesson with the club pro and he was a young pro from Texas and I agreed to do it and he just made it so much fun for me that I begged for another lesson and another lesson, and another lesson after that.

Speaker 2

Pretty soon after that, I became his ball boy and what that meant back then was he would teach all day.

Speaker 2

I would be on the court walking around with my ball hopper picking up balls for him, and at the end of the day he would hit with me as payment, gave me a racket, and I did that for about two, three years and got to where I could, you know, play halfway decently. I was a, like a lot of people, a genuine court rat, you know, would play with anybody, anywhere, anytime, and the pro's name was Rick and he began to use me to demonstrate during his lessons. And I remember one day and well, it sounds incredibly corny, but 50 years later, a little over that, I remember it like it was yesterday and it's the honest to God truth he asked me to demonstrate a volley for one of his players and she was having a tough time, and so I grabbed my racket, went to the net and Rick fed me a couple of balls, and she was having a tough time. And so I grabbed my racket, went to the net and and Rick fed me a couple of balls and, thank God, I hit him in the center of the racket and the lady got a look on her face and she just said oh, you know, now I get it and I'm well aware of how corny that sounds, but it really is the truth.

Speaker 2

And at that moment I knew I wanted to teach tennis. And you know, if I figured, if I could find a way to teach tennis and write about tennis and that'd be, that'd be fantastic. And you know, 50, some odd years later, that's, that's what's happened.

Speaker 1

So to follow up questions to that story one what was it about that coach that made you fall in love with tennis and want to go back for more lessons, when it sounds like you were pretty skeptical going in?

Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean the late 60s. You know tennis was not cool, right, I was more of a baseball, basketball, a little bit of a football kid and you know, running around in short white shorts, chasing a tennis ball was not really, you know, considered cool and that's of course what every kid wants to be. But Rick, just, you know, he just made it so much fun. That's really the bottom line. I mean it didn't matter if I swung and missed, it didn't matter if I hit the ball, you know, off the side of the racket, it was just fun.

Speaker 2

And that's really, you know, kind of really resonated throughout my career. You know, with our pros that we have at our club, you know I tell them when the kids come off the court, and the adults as well, you know I tell them when the kids come off the court, and the adults as well, you know they get in the car with mom or dad or whoever. They're not going to say, boy, greg taught me a continental grip. Today they're going to say, you know that was really a lot of fun or it wasn't so that that that initial experience where it was just so much fun, you know A got me hooked on tennis but B really impacted the way I feel the game should be presented to people.

Speaker 1

And then the lady where the volley clicked for her. So you go out there, you show how to hit the volley. Is there anything you said that helped it click for her? Or was it something your coach said or something you demonstrated?

Speaker 2

No, I just think you know whatever he was saying. I mean, it was kind of basic tips. You know, turn your shoulders, move forward, short motion. Keep your eye, and you know, keep your eye on the point of contact it just for whatever reason. You know, I did it, she saw it, she liked it and it worked Okay.

Speaker 1

And when you, when you saw that work for her, you were like, oh, this coaching thing is really cool.

Speaker 2

My life changed. Yeah, no, it is Again. I know I've told this story a lot and I know how incredibly crazy it sounds, but it is true and it's interesting because this teaching pro had such an impact on me. I tracked him down about three, four years ago and he's in Florida and I called him up. His name was Rick Florida. And I called him up, his name was Rick Murray and I said is this the same Rick Murray that was at you know such and such club back in 19,. You know 70? And he said yeah. And I said well, you probably won't remember. My name is Greg Moran and I just wanted to call you to tell you what an impact you had on my life. And it's funny because it turns out he had seen you know my name in some industry stuff or some things I've done in tennis, and he said I always wondered if it was that same little blonde haired kid that you know, and so it's a great, it's a great story.

Speaker 1

Yeah, that is no, it makes sense, I think. As you know, I coach a little bit on the court myself. Most of what I do is behind the computer, but a little bit on the court, and it is such a good feeling when you're working with a student and something just clicks for them.

Speaker 1

Like you might be teaching a volley or a serve or whatever, and you're trying like three or four different ways to teach it and then you find one that works and they're like oh, now I get it. Yeah, and you see it in action.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And that is kind of a fun problem solving thing. That happens with coaching. So I wanted to go through the book and ask you questions. The book basically covers everything that a recreational player would need to improve their game. So we're going to just talk about improvement overall and then you can either reference specific things for the book or stories that you have from your own experience. So I wanted to start with a very simple question why don't most adult tennis players get better?

Speaker 2

Ah, that's, that's a great question. Um, you know, I find people generally don't improve, um, two main reasons. One is probably the primary one is they don't practice enough or practice correctly. You know you've got your average recreational player. Uh, they'll come to the club, they'll play. You know they'll play three or four minutes of of uninspired mini tennis, right, pretending to warm up, they'll play. You know they'll play three or four minutes of uninspired mini tennis, right, pretending to warm up. I mean, you may be a little young to remember this. Well, but back in my day, you know, mini tennis was a drill. I mean, when I was in college we played mini tennis tournaments, matches, and it was, it was a training exercise.

Speaker 2

Many years ago I did, I did something in Africa and I watched the lady. I was a guest pro at her tennis academy and the lady that ran the academy. She had her kids. I watched her do a 45 minute clinic just of mini tennis and the feel and the touch and the vision of the court that her kids had. You know it was amazing.

Speaker 2

But as time has gone on it's kind of degenerated into this. You know, ridiculous warmup where you stand, still, you talk to your friends, you catch up. You know how's your wife, how the kids, what's happening this week. So you do that for two or three minutes. You go back to the baseline. Occasionally some of the guys will go up there and hoist their leg on the net and kind of, you know, do some pulsating thing where they pretend to be stretching. So you know that's part of it is they're not, they're playing at tennis as opposed to, you know, really trying to get better.

Speaker 2

And the second thing is I think people generally don't have patience. They don't have the patience. You know you'll work with somebody and you know you have to try to explain to them. Listen, it's going to take whatever a thousand, two thousand to get to get the feel of this. You know I was working with a guy a couple of weeks ago and he wanted to, you know, to work on a top spin serve. So I'm showing him, you know where the toss should be and motion, and he's going through the, through the toss and everyone's. You know eight feet to the left, eight feet to the right, nothing's. You know in the vicinity. And he said okay, okay, I got it, I got it, what's next? And I said no, no, there's no. Next, there's this right. And then there's next, and people generally, like I said, they don't. They don't practice with intent and they're really not patient, which is you know which kind of plays into the introduction of the book I talk about. You know people's attention span. You know who declined, you know dramatically over the past few years.

Speaker 2

But I would say those are really the biggest two reasons. And you know there's nothing wrong. You know there's nothing says a recreational player has to improve. You know, I have a lady that I was working with for years and she would be doing, you know, whatever she's doing on the court, you know, hitting some funky shots here, there, whatever, and they would she'd win some points. And her name was Megan. And I would say Megan, that's, that's a nice shot.

Speaker 2

But at the next level you might want to, you know, because I always tell the people that I work with it. You know I'm going to coach you to play the game the way it's played at the next level, no-transcript level. You're joking. And I said you know what? Not a thing, you know, because, well, people, people play tennis for different reasons, so not everybody's out there, you know, I mean they're going to say they want to improve, but for a lot of players, if they're playing once a week and that's that's the first little section of my book. It's called nothing will work if you don't, and if you're playing once a week, um, you know you're not going to make, you're not going to make dramatic improvements, most likely, and that and that's fine. If that's all you can manage, then just you need to, you know you know, adjust your expectations, Okay.

Speaker 1

So let's say somebody comes to you who's a 3-5 player and they want to get to a 4-0, and they say I've got four hours a week to dedicate. Can I get to 4-0? And if so, how should I allocate those four hours?

Speaker 2

I would say you know again, there's a section of the book where I talk specifically about, you know, moving up from the levels and I go kind of from 3.0 to 4.5, because that's really I think that's where a large portion of you know recreational players kind of roam between those levels. And I said, from a 3.0 level to get to a 3.5, you're always working on everything. But I think the main emphasis at the 3.0 level to get to 3.5 is still more technical. You know, still refining your stroke. Still, you know, believe it or not still ingraining the split step. You know proper ready position, because those are things that you know people kind of roll their eyes at when you talk about them, but as you get better they're hugely important. You know, because I always tell people there's really, you know, there's no right or wrong way to hold or swing a racket, but there's efficient and there's less efficient. You know, and you want to be as efficient as you can, because you know, you know well what happens as you get better the game gets faster. So if you've got a lot of stuff going on with your strokes or you're late preparing, you're going to break down. So from 3-0 to 3-5, I say, the major emphasis is still, you know, technical three, five to four, oh. Um, I think it's tactical, it becomes tactical Right, and I think the game, uh, the way you're able to win points at three oh to three, five level will will get you killed at the four oh level.

Speaker 2

You know, if I've got a three, five level player at the net, I can hit a big hard forehand shoulder height. You know, whatever, 80 miles, whatever, it's going to be a hard shot and a 3.5 level player probably doesn't have the skills to handle that. So they'll dump that volley in the net and then the 3.5, well, this works. This is great. If I just blast away, it doesn't matter if it's four feet above the net shoulder height. You know the 4.0 level players smiling as that ball is coming at them.

Speaker 2

So I think it becomes more a tactical understanding of you know where most points are won in doubles right In high level doubles, and we know that that's you know. Controlling the net is key and hitting down the middle, at the feet, over the head, that's where the majority of points are won at the higher level. And one of the things I really try to stress to people is the difference between, you know, singles and doubles. If you and I are playing singles, you're going to break me down by moving me side to side right. That doesn't work in good doubles. So it really becomes more of a low and high kind of thing.

Speaker 2

So I always say you know, the quality of your shot in singles is determined by the depth of the ball, but the quality of your shot in doubles is more determined by the height. So you know, like I said, a hundred miles an hour, shoulder height is not a good shot in a strong game. Five miles an hour, you know, six inches over the net, that's a difficult shot. So I try to get my players to focus on that, hitting very, very low or very, very high. So I think it's really to get to that next level. It really just becomes better decision making.

Speaker 1

How do we practice the tactical side of the game, Is it? You know? I want to add the lobber turn to my game, or I want to add a top spin dipper through the middle, so I just need to go out and hit 500 of those throughout the course of this next month, or how do we go about that?

Speaker 2

Well, like like anything else, reps, I think it depends on your situation. So I do a lot of. I have a lot of um group lessons with four players, so we do an awful lot of. You know, double situation drills. Where I'll have one of the drills I like to do the most is I'll have, you know, two players at the net, if you can visualize this. Two at the net, one at the service side on the other side, and one at the baseline on the other side, and we do that pretty much.

Issues in Tennis Coaching and Lessons

Speaker 2

You know, I don't want to say every class, but some variation of that, because that's really the situation that comes up the most in high level doubles, where one team is controlling, takes control of the net, and then from there I can kind of work on whatever I want to work on. If I want to have the player at the baseline work on lobbying, I can feed them a deep shot, have them lob, play the point from there, and then the players at the net are working on, you know, their anticipation skills. You know anticipating the lob, anticipating the drive, and that I think that's a great. You know, if you have a lot of coaches that listen to your podcasts, I'm sure you do. I think that's a great, a great drill, because you can kind of create any situation that you want to work on for your players and it's like anything else you know reps.

Speaker 1

So when you're doing this drill, are you on the side of the two net players and you're feeding to the baseline player, or are there a bunch of different variations that you're talking about?

Speaker 2

Yeah, there are a lot of variations.

Speaker 2

Most of the time I'm on the side of the two players at the net because I want to be out of the way, you know, and I'm feeding to the team that the player, the side that has one up and one back, and, as I said, from there I can feed the baseline player a variety of things, the player at the service and I can feed them all different kinds of volleys, half volleys.

Speaker 2

I can feed them an overhead and have the player, the players of the net have to transition back to defense. It depends on the level of play Will. Quite honestly, if I've got a group of lower level players, then I'll often stand way behind the two well, not way behind, but yeah, behind the two players at the net, pretty far behind, because that way when the ball gets past them and get through them, I can keep it going Right, I can get it back, and that's a great drill and I've done that drill, you know, with like advanced beginners and it's just a fun way to get, to get action going. Um, because you can get a rally going, you can start to give them, you know, some strategy and all that gets back to what I said initially it makes it fun.

Speaker 1

Absolutely so. So what, um? Do you see a problem, I guess, with? You talked about mini tennis earlier and how it's kind of digressed from what it used to be. Do you see a problem with tennis coaching today as a whole? I mean, I've talked to people other coaches and players about this in the past and I think one of the problems that tennis has as far as like the sport growing and things like that, is a lot of people will sign up for a lesson with their local coach and that coach may not be super technically savvy, they may not be great at coaching beginners, and the person just thinks, oh, I just stink at tennis, it's not for me, and they quit the sport when in reality maybe the coach wasn't doing the best job. So is there anything you feel like wrong with tennis coaching today? If so, what is that? And then how can someone find a good coach?

Speaker 2

Wow, I mean, you're really teeing this one up for me. Cut me off when you want me to stop. Okay, cause I could go for an hour on this one. Let's do it. Yes, and that's that's in all honesty. That's the reason I wrote. You know I wrote the book because I wrote a couple of books before and figured, you know, I was done.

Speaker 2

And then over the years, you know, there's just so much tennis instruction, you know, available to people. I think I said in the introduction, if you Google tennis instruction, you get something like 54 million hits, right, and everybody out there not everybody out there, but you have all the Internet guys. They have their method, they have their secret. You know I've got the five secrets to the new serve. Here are the first three. Send me your credit card, I'll give you the final two. You know stuff like that. And then you've got the play like the pros guys, which is another section of my book where I say I think that's the most ridiculous thing a recreational player can be told. Yes, I think there are a lot of people out there teaching tennis that aren't qualified to do so, and not only with technical knowledge, but also you know their approach to teaching strokes but teaching strategy. You know, if I hear one more time, this is how Djokovic did it, this is how Serena does it, you know. And what happens is the players and I see the result of that Right, they come to my court and I think they're just going down a bad path, both in terms of their approach to strokes and their and their approach to strategy. You know, and I think, yeah, I think that's a major issue in tennis, because what happens? You know, we have an intro to tennis class, that we do tennis. Because what happens, you know, we, we have an intro to tennis class, um, that we do, we, we do that frequently and it was um, you know the statistic I came across, what was something like 85% of the people that pick up tennis, you know, quit for one reason or another within whatever it was a year, and the reason is they're not, they're not being started off correctly. I mean your average person.

Speaker 2

And it's coming up now cause people are going to be watching the Grand Slams, you know, wimbledon, the US Open, and they're going to watch the players and they're going to say, oh boy, that looks like fun. So they're going to look around their house. Everybody has old rackets in their house. They're going to grab two rackets. They're going to take a couple of beat up balls from their dog, go out to the court and try to rally from baseline to baseline, because that's what they saw on TV and it's a nightmare, right. So who would want to do that?

Speaker 2

So with our intro to tennis people, we're very strict about the way we want them to start. So I will give them free court time during the course of the program, but I'll say you have to do what I tell you to do during the practice session. So I've designed a practice session for them where they're doing some shadow swinging, some drop hitting, because to send two beginners out there to try to rally, it's just not going to be good. You know, there's lots of little rally progressions that you can teach people, so they're gradually, they're gradually moving along. So, yeah, I think there's a big issue with that and from somebody like me that hires pros, it's challenging because I think you have a lot of people that are getting into tennis teaching that used to be good players and they can't play anymore. So, okay, well, I'll teach right and they teach the way they remember themselves being taught. But that's not. It's not one size fits all, or they're teaching tennis on their way to something else. You know I'm going to become a you know whatever accountant, this, that, whatever. So I'll teach tennis for a couple of years. And, yeah, I think people, I think people are getting a lot of bad advice and don't get me wrong, there are many, many, many wonderful teachers out there, but, yeah, I see the result of that.

Speaker 2

The other thing, well, I think is an issue, is that people are taking lessons from a lot of different pros these days. Right, years ago, you had your tennis pro. You would take lessons with him, you would stick with him for whatever, two, three, four years and you'd have a fun time improving. Today, people are you know, a lesson with Greg on Monday, a lesson with Will on Wednesday, a lesson with John on Thursday, and the problem with that? I was talking to a lady that I work with and she does this, I work with and she does this, and she said well, you know, greg, I think different pros see different things and she's a three, five level player. And I said I said, well, you know, I don't think our games are, you know, scientific experiments. We need to put together a think tank, you know, to figure it out. I mean strokes and strokes. Strokes are strokes and fundamentals are fundamentals. And the problem is is when you're taking lessons from different pros, you could be getting different information, but also each pro prioritizes different things.

Speaker 2

No-transcript lessons from a lot of pros, like so many people are these days. It would be great if the pros would communicate, but you know, I think we both know that's not going to happen too often. So then it becomes incumbent on the player. You know, when I get a new player I had one yesterday and I'll always say well, what are you working on? You know, with your, with your pro, and the scary thing, the scary thing to me, is so often they'll say well, you know, I don't know, I don't know, and that's, that's a reflection on the pro. I mean, if somebody I certainly hope, if somebody comes and takes a lesson, one of my players takes a lesson with you, well, what is Greg working on with you? I really hope they they can say well, we're working on, you know A, b and C, and if they can't, then I'm not doing my job. Right.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So what questions should we ask? Let's say so you're in Connecticut so you can't obviously work with everyone on the court. But let's say you come down here to Dallas-Fort Worth, where I live, and you have a 3-0 player for a few weeks that you're able to work with. But then they tell you okay, greg, I want to find a good local pro in my area. How would you help them do that? Like, what questions would you ask the pro to make sure that they're as good as they can be?

Speaker 2

That's. That's a good question. I mean, I mean the first thing that I do, that I, if I have a new player, first thing. I again it happened yesterday I always say tell me about your tennis. You know, well, I'm in this. I used to play. The standard one is I played all through high school. Then I went off to college, haven't played since then.

Speaker 2

Now I'm in my, you know, mid to late thirties. I've got some kids. I want to get back into tennis. You know I get, I get three or four of those, you know, a month easily, which is great, you know, people coming back. You know, coming back to tennis is obviously wonderful for, for, for, you know, guys like us. And then it really gets down to how, how much tennis are you able to play? Right, I can play once a week, okay, well then we're going to approach it this way and I'll I'll instruct people differently, knowing how much they're going to be able to play. If I've got somebody coming three days a week, I'm going to approach my lessons with them much differently than I am somebody coming once a week, because I know they're going to be able to put in the practice time, you know. So it's really devising, you know, understanding why the players are out there, um, and that's really, I think, a skill of an instructor. I'm going off your question here a little bit, but I think there are two things that are really important is coaching your players at the appropriate place that they are in their development.

Speaker 2

And an example of that would be I had a group of ladies a while back, a USTA team, 3.0 level team, and the captain said to me you know, greg, would you teach us the eye formation? And I kind of looked at her and I said, well, no. And she looked at me, she gave me a nasty look and she said, well, why not? And I said, well, when you're, when you're bent over at the middle of the court at the net, and your partner's bent over in front of you, are you confident you're not going to hit her in the back of the head with your serve? And she kind of looked at me well, no, not really. And then I said, well, can you serve to A, b, c and D, you know, whenever you want? And she in the service box, she goes. Well, no, not really. Then I said then the I-formation is not not going to be not going to work so fast forward. You know, 18 months later I'm working with the same team and I said no, you shouldn't do that Then. We shouldn't do it then because your skills hadn't weren't there yet. Now you've practiced for 18 months, you're better, we can start to do it and you'll maybe have some success with it. So it's you know understanding where your players are, you know what their goals are, how much time they can put into it and then that's really the skill of the instructor knowing at what pace to move them along, at what pace to introduce a new technique and reinforce the old technique. So you know.

Speaker 2

As far as finding another pro, you know referrals, you know I mean certified pros are good. That's a good place to start. I mean I don't think you know certification necessarily means you're a great pro. You know a lot of times and I might get in trouble for this and it means you know you went to a weekend workshop somewhere and passed kind of a test. But it doesn't mean you're, you know you're a great instructor. I would say then go watch the person teach. You know, watch them, watch them give lessons. I mean I give, I give lots of. You know even you know someone that's been doing it for as many years as I have. I give many, many, many, you know, complimentary lessons to people when they come to you know, to my club.

Speaker 2

Um, you know, as far as somebody in a new area, that's that's a tough one, I think it's it's really finding somebody.

Simplifying Tennis Strategies for Improvement

Speaker 2

That's that's under. Well, I have quite a long section on that in the book. I think you know what are, um, you know, are they in it? Are they in it to be in it? Are they in it on their way? You know what I mean. Are they? Are they true professional? They're caring about learning. Um, you know, trying to get themselves better. Do they have an interest in you beyond the hour that they're getting paid, you know, to be on the court with you. Um, so for me to come to a new town and suggest somebody that would be, I could, you know, like this, suggest some things to look for? And really it gets down to one thing the first experience on the court right With a new pro. Because, as I said, that's what lit the fire for me, and you'll know I mean look at the end of the day, if I take a lesson from such and such, if I go on the court with you know, whoever whoever the best tennis coach in the world is, if it's not fun. You know what am I doing.

Speaker 1

Right, right, especially as an adult rec player. We're not getting paid for this, so we might as well have fun. Yeah, I feel like one of the things you said is, if somebody asked one of your students what they're working on with you, they you would hope that they would know like A, b and C, and I think somebody can take away from that. You know, if you are looking for a new coach, maybe you go to that coach and say what specific things would you work on? If my goal is to get to from 3.5 to 4.0 in the next year and see what their answer is, maybe and if it's an answer that you like ask a few different coaches and go with the one who has kind of the best plan that makes the most sense to you.

Speaker 2

Yeah, you know and I'm not sure. You know, I don't know if it's all that complicated.

Speaker 1

That's really one of my big.

Speaker 2

You know big things, will is, I think, tennis. Again, this goes back to what you said a little while ago. I think it's just made way too complicated, to what you said a little while ago. I think it's just made way too complicated, you know, I think. I think the approach to hitting the ball is way too complicated. The approach to strategy is way too complicated, I mean, I find again, I don't know if you would in my opinion, you may or may not have heard of this guy the best tennis teacher in history was a guy named Vic Braden.

Speaker 2

Right, I love Vic Braden and I was fortunate enough to be able to do a couple of things on the court with him. And he said to me at one point he said, the better a tennis player gets, the simpler their approach to the game has to become. And that is just, you know, really changed the way that I teach tennis. And those are the, that's the, what's the word I'm looking for, that's the umbrella under which I operate, which I have seen my players just improve and explode, because people have the disease of too much, too much topspin, too much power, too much angle. And there's a very famous story UCLA basketball coach John Wooden is a legendary basketball coach. They won, however, many national titles years ago. They were known for just running three plays. So if I'm playing defense against UCLA, they come down the floor, they set up. I know exactly what's coming, exactly what they're going to do, but I can't stop it because they execute it so well and that's a good thing. I think that's, you know, for coaches out there. I think that's kind of a good way to get, to help your players improve, to have them focus on, you know, executing their shots.

Speaker 2

There's a very, very famous story. Somebody said that, jimmy Connors, before a big match, you know what's your, what's your strategy against. You know well, well, I don't know, I'm going to go out there and play my game. If I execute my game and play, you know, get my shots well, I'll do pretty well, and I think that's really a good way to look at it. That's something I really go over with my USTA players. I tell them it drives me nuts, because they'll come to the core and they'll say, well, I played a match and Will did this and he hit these angles and he hit these alley shots and he did this, and et cetera, et cetera, and I said well, that's great, but what are you doing that's allowing Will to do that? Probably, you know ripping balls down your alley. If you're shifting over to cover it, like you should, he's most likely not hitting sharp angle winners, unless you're hitting to the outsides of the court like you should, he's not. You know, attacking the net unless you're. You know what I mean Unless you're hitting short, and I think that's a great way for players to look at it. If you can take the opponent out of it a little bit, that helps in many ways.

Speaker 2

I used to get very, very nervous, you know, when I would play matches and I had a coach at one point who really helped me a lot. For example, let's say we're playing and you're coming to the net and I said, oh my God, here comes the well, I got to hit it past him. So you're like the forethought in my mind and I would get nervous and, you know, dump a shot. He taught me to become very target oriented. Okay, so you're coming to the net, I'm not even looking at, I'm not even seeing you, I'm picking a spot on the court and hitting it, and that really helped me. You know, lessen the nervousness that I felt and I think if you can get players to focus on what they're doing on the court, even if you don't have the nervous issue that I had your level of play is just going to improve dramatically you don't have the nervous issue that I had.

Tennis Fundamentals and Pro Techniques

Speaker 1

Your level of play is just going to improve dramatically. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think one of the questions that popped into my mind that I teach people is at the end of each point, whether you won it or lost it, if you can ask yourself what could I have done earlier in the point better, or what could I have done earlier in the point better, or what could I have done earlier in the point to to win that point earlier. I think that kind of ties in with what are you doing to allow them to place it well, or what are you doing to allow them to hit those sharp angles or to reach you through the middle or get to the net before you, and really focusing on the opponent helps with that a lot. So let's see.

Speaker 1

So you talked about why we can't, or what we cannot, learn from the pros, why we shouldn't be studying the pros, and this is something. We just finished a high school season here and I was an assistant coach with the team here and one of our students was trying to mimic Federer's serve and they had their right foot way behind their left and got this big shoulder turn and I was like dude, you don't have the mobility to be able to hit that serve or the skill set, so we're not going to start there. So I thought that was kind of a good example of that. But what can we learn from the pros and what shouldn't we be focused on the pros for?

Speaker 2

Yeah, no, I think there are a lot of things. I think, if you want to, I mean obviously the best in the world. So of course there are things we can learn from them. How to hit the ball, I don't think, is one of them, necessarily, because what you see is not what's happening right, it's happening so fast that you'll watch, you know you'll see a lot of.

Speaker 2

You'll watch the pros say hit a forehand, and it looks like they're. You know they're whipping through the ball and coming over the ball. That's, you know, one of the things you hear all the time, and you even hear the commentators say that it's always really coming over the ball today. Well, I mean, think about that. How are you coming over the ball? If you're coming over the ball, is it going to come up through the strings to go over the net? There's no such thing as coming over the ball. That can't happen. So when you watch, say, a Roger Federer, and you watch him hit his forehand and you, if you could stop it at the point of contact, you'll see that his arm extends out four or five more feet before his elbow, his elbow breaks to come across his body and a lot of players you know, in our world and I hate to say this, I've heard a lot of teaching pros say this they confuse. You know, the finish with the follow through right. And.

Speaker 2

I have people say all the time that their process well, point your elbow to your target on your forehand or read your wristband. I've yet to figure out how that can have anything to do with hitting the ball, because by the time you're pointing your elbow or reading your wristband, the ball's gone. You know so when you're watching the pros, what you're seeing, you know isn't really what's happening, because it's happening so fast. You know Nadal when he plays, when he plays singles, you know his average ball is going over the net 90 inches and it doesn't look like that on tv because, you know, tv screen flattens it. I think if we want to learn from the pros, the best way to do that is go back and learn what they were doing when they're learning. And they did that actually with roger federer. They went back and spoke to his mother, who I guess was there for the whole, the whole thing, and she said what roger used to do during his lessons his pro would feed him a forehand, he would stand perfectly still, step into the ball, take a long swing, point to his target and hold his balance. Now you do that over and over and over and over again to get that fundamental, you know, and the long hitting zone. And then you know, obviously, other things. You know, I think, their preparation you know. You watch Novak Djokovic's ready position. That's something that you know.

Speaker 2

Again, like I said earlier, people don't really appreciate that. You see, you know, you see people, the recreational players, in their ready position. They've got the hands below their waist. They're certainly not going to take a split step Right, so they're late getting started. Their racket's not in position and that's fine up to a point. You know, if you're playing a lower level, a lower level game, the ball is not moving very fast, it's not coming back very often. So you don't need that, the efficiency or the quick start that the split step gives you and to have your racket prepared initially. But it's when you get, when you get better, you get to a three, five, four level where that ball is coming back quickly and more frequently. You know there's a good phrase that the light at the end of the tunnel is the train coming right at you, and that's why a lot of players don't advance beyond a certain, a certain level.

Speaker 2

I've got a group of I think I mentioned a group of four or five level guys that I work with on Saturday and I pulled them up to the net and a couple of pros were working at me and I whispered to one of them and I said I said tell me, you know, when I start talking, tell me how long it takes before the guys start rolling their eyes. And I started talking about the split step and the ready position and it took about 15 seconds before they started rolling their eyes because they don't think they need to focus on those fundamentals. But those things become even more important as you get better and the game is, you know, speeding up. You know fundamentals, don't? The game doesn't change, I don't believe, as you get better. Fundamentals are fundamentals. What changes is the speed and frequency that you have to execute those fundamentals. Yeah, that makes a ton of sense.

Speaker 2

I'm sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 1

No, I said that makes a ton of sense.

Speaker 2

Yeah, no, I read a great thing a while back. It said Tom Brady was doing the same fundamental footwork drills at age 43 that he was doing at age 12 yeah, yeah, that's wild um.

Speaker 2

So certainly other things you can learn from the pros. I mean what they do in between points. I think they're rituals, you know, and I and I do think I will say I think, um, the tech, the athlete, has caught up to the technology. You know when people I live, I live in connecticut, so the? U Open is very close, so a lot of my players will go to the Open and I'll say, oh, what did you, what did you notice from the pros, and it's always the same thing oh, my God, they hit the ball so hard, right? Well, sure, they do, but they can do that consistently and that's not, that's not why they're great. But I do think, as I said, the athletes caught up to the technology and you're starting to see, you know more, more slicing, more drop shots, because everybody can hit the ball hard all day long. That's not what's going to win points.

Speaker 2

So the way that those are developing points now, I think that's good. You know, like I said, their rituals, um, you know what they're doing in between points. Uh, things like that are good. But I think Nick Volatary, who just passed away a little while ago, he said you know, you can learn a lot of things from the pros. How to hit the ball is not one of them. Yeah.

Power and Strategy in Recreational Tennis

Speaker 1

Yeah, that makes sense. I think I like the ready position tip there on, like Djokovic or really any of the pros. I watch a lot of the doubles, obviously, and I was just in Miami a few months ago watching a lot of the doubles matches in Indian Wells before that, and then I came back and I hadn't picked up a racket in like two or three weeks and I played a doubles match and I was volleying so cleanly from just watching, I assume it was this, I don't know. I had watched so many pro doubles matches and I watched how, out in front and ready their hands are all the time when they're at the net and how simple their volley technique was, and I just tried to do that and keep it so simple and I volleyed really well.

Speaker 1

And then I played earlier this week, which is, like you know, six weeks later, and I've been playing off and on and I've slowly started to lose that because I haven't been watching any pro matches.

Speaker 2

Well, I think you said no, I think you said the magic word, and you said it a couple of times. They're simple.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it really is. It really is, um. So I wanted to ask about power. I listened to your uh episode with uh Maribond on tennis files a little bit earlier, which I'll link to in the show notes. That was a great interview. He asked you about power and one thing you said that stuck out to me is I've never worked with one of my students on power, so explain why that is and what that means.

Speaker 2

I think in our world you know the world of recreational tennis I don't think I said this with Maribond had, because it's, I like it, it's I think power is the last resort of the unskilled player, right, they can't do anything else. So they're going to come out, they're going to tee it up, they're going to look great. Missing, you know, they hit the occasional world-class shot. Um, I think power is, you know, misunderstood. I mean, yes, what I said to um, to marabon, is in, you know, 40 more than that years of teaching tennis. I've never said to a player today we're going to work on power. Um, because I don't really believe you do work on power. I think.

Speaker 2

I think power evolves as technique improves, right, it's like when people are, you know, you have your club players or your high school players, they're hitting and every now and then they all of a sudden just the ball just explodes off their racket. It's like, oh my god, where'd that come from? Right, yeah, everything kind of worked out. The timing was good, the contact was good, all that. The technique was good and I always use, you know, my wife is an example that my wife when we were in college, where we went to rollins college and she was a big star on the women's team. She was number uh three in the country when she was 21. And she's small, five foot two, and if you think of Chris Everett, like strokes I'm in the epitome of efficient simplicity. And her name is Kelly and Kelly was hitting the ball harder than most men, with very efficient mechanics.

Speaker 2

So yeah, I think you know, to me one of the worst phrases in tennis is racket head speed. Right, I hate that phrase. Um, because the minute you say to a club player and I'm sure your high school kids you know, eat that up, right, racket head speed. Well, that that's great. Now I can really take a big swing at the ball. And when you take a big swing at the ball, what happens? Your muscles tense up, your stroke shortens, you lose control, you hit it hard but you're not, there's no control. So I really, you know, I really you know, de-emphasize it and the reality of it is, and I will say this even to my four or five level guys guys, even when you hit it hard, you're really not hitting it that hard. You know, the average four or level man serve, I believe, is something like 75 miles an hour and those are the serves that go in, not the ones that hit the back fence.

Speaker 2

So you know power in the world of recreational tennis, I think, is, you know, brings more pain than pleasure.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it's highly overrated. I think season with our high school kids on, especially the guys team on not hitting with power, because they were just too uh, ingrained and kind of addicted to the feeling of swinging hard and making clean contact, which happens one every 20 swings or whatever it is, um, so we had to really work on like consistency and that height over the net and different things like that, and it, it, um. It brings to mind when you go to I don't play as many USTA tournaments as I used to, but when I used to go, maybe there'd be a new player in the tournament or somebody like that, and people would start talking like, oh, did you see this new player? And they're like basing it all off like one shot that they hit really hard, that goes in 30 percent of the time and it's just a real misconception that I feel like tennis players and a lot of coaches have.

Speaker 2

Well, particularly, you know, particularly in the recreational world, like one of the things I'll say, you know, frequently to players when we're doing our drills, you know somebody will hit a screaming line drive. You know that just barely hits the line and everybody gets all excited oh my God, great shot. You know, and I say first of all, the ball hits the line. It's not a great shot, it's a lucky shot. If you don't believe that, take the ball, drop it out of your hand and aim for a line. You know that's likely not going to happen.

Improving Tennis Skills at Different Levels

Speaker 2

And then you know so they get all wrapped up about that that one occasional great shot and then the players are telling them how wonderful they are. And then, if they're on the court with a pro, and the pro is telling them how wonderful they are, and then what happens? They continue to try to hit that quote unquote, great slash, lucky shot. And by the end of a session, as you say they've made, if they're making 30 percent, that's pretty good, you know. Let's say they've made 20 and uh, you know, you win a couple of great points and you make a lot of ridiculous errors and as far as I know, they don't give degree of difficulty points for in tennis. So yeah, no, it's one of the things I like to say you know frequently to players is you know great shot, don't do it again yeah, because it's not a good phrase

Speaker 1

yeah right, right. So I want to transition to doubles here, uh, for a few minutes. So I the the story you mentioned earlier about eye formation, uh, with that lady, and then 18 months later, you tell her we are going to work on eye formation now, Um, I saw that in the book in the's section, and it struck me a little bit, because I formation is something that I teach a lot in my lessons, but I've never placed a skill level on it, which I think is a great idea. Use eye formation. And for that lady who you told you you know you're not ready for eye formation, would you have her run Australian formation, maybe, so that she doesn't hit her partner in the back of the head but can still get the advantage of forcing the returner down the line and hitting a forehand instead of a backhand? Talk a little bit about that, yeah, 100%, absolutely right.

Speaker 2

And the other. You know the other thing. Well, unfortunately is, in the world of recreational tennis, most club players or recreational players don't have very good serves. You know. So, when I work with a team on, you know, australian formation or the rare eye formation, or even serving in volley, we'll practice that and then I'll do it in a very controlled way. But I'll also say to them at the end of the day you know this is not going to work in your matches. You know, to serve and volley you have to have two things the serve and the volley. You know so if you're not doing those two things, well, those, those aren't going to work. You know, maybe you throw them in now and then to keep, you know, players off balance. Um, on a point that you know it doesn't and again I hate to say it like this, but you put a 45, 50 year old person in the middle of the court, crouch down, whoa, they're not going to spring up too fast potentially. You know you have to take that into account as well. You know your high school player, they're going to be able to jump around and do all that kind of stuff, but you know, your average club player. That's a different, that's a different, that's, that's a different animal. So yeah, australian formation, for sure, I mean, I really rarely, you know, I've got some four or five level men, as I said, we would try it then a little bit. And the Australian formation is fun because from that you can do lots of different things. You know you can. You can have the player at the net poaching, you can have the server serving and coming in, so that's kind of a fun way to get players doing some different, different formations, that that they can have some success with.

Speaker 2

And I also, you know, I'll also tell the people, you know, if I've got a group of. I have a group of three o level ladies that another pro and I work with, uh, every wednesday and we're working with them. As I said earlier, you know, the goal is get them up to the three, five level. So what we work on in our sessions are the things that they're not, you know, particularly adept at yet. But I'll always say, you know, for example, I'm trying, I'm having them, you know, get to the net, two players up, you know, all the time, because that's, that's the goal, that's the way the game is played. But then I'll preface that by saying if you have a match tomorrow, this isn't the way to go. If you're playing to win tomorrow, then you're going to do better playing one up, one back.

Speaker 2

I have a group of ladies I'm actually going to see them tomorrow and they're in their late 30s, early 40s, young players, very athletic, they're doing great. They're solid, 3-0 plus level. And I'm doing the same thing with them having them come to the net as much as possible. And it gets ugly right. The ball is going between them, it's going over them, they're running into each other and after a few, you know, a few minutes, they start to give me, you know, give me the dirty looks. This doesn't work. What are we doing? And I pull them up to the net and you know, I'll say, ladies, when I think about what we're going to work on, I, you works, we just can't do it yet, you know. So. As far as the different formations, australian formation absolutely. Because, because it's fun I formation.

Speaker 1

I think that's, you know, it really depends on the skill level. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I think one of the big things that I still struggle with I think everybody does as tennis players, is just being willing to kind of be uncomfortable learning some of these new skills Right.

Speaker 1

So, like the servant volley is a big one and it's something I used to never do Now I do it, not every time, but a good bit. Um, and it's something that I had to just get comfortable hitting some of those half volleys from that service line area, and that meant I probably lost some matches that I could have won just serving and staying back the whole time. But I was focused on more the long-term rather than just that specific match. You kind of have to decide the trade-off.

Speaker 2

That's a tough thing to. Yeah, I agree with you, a thousand percent and that's a tough thing to get people to do. You know that's why, in theory, if you're playing a thousand percent and that's that's a tough thing to get people to do, you know, that's why. That's why, in theory, if you're playing a lot of practice matches, you know, like I've got a lot of USTA ladies and they'll, they'll, they'll play practice matches and I'll say, well, you know what did you work on? Well, we, we just played.

Speaker 2

And I said, well, instead of just going out and playing, why don't to play a set where everybody has to serve and volley and their return to serve has to go back to the server. Like, what I do is serve and volley drill I always make. I like to do a lot of cooperative hitting, you know, because that's obviously hugely better If you can hit the ball right back to me. You've got pretty good control right, so I'll do things like that. So when you play your practice match and this might be a fun thing for your high school kids you know you have to serve and volley. You know every serve you have to, the first return must go back to the server, so the server gets that first volley and then play, or you have to lob the return. You know what I mean. So you're practicing, you know, with a purpose, as opposed to just going out and playing another game of doubles.

Speaker 1

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Um, so what? Uh, what are some of the common issues? Let's focus on doubles specifically um, for 3035, and then for you talked earlier about 30, you have to focus on a little bit more technical things. And then 35, it starts to get more tactical, and then 40, I imagine, is even more so. What are some of the common issues you see on the doubles court at each of those levels?

Speaker 2

As I said, at the 3.0 level, it's technical right, the casual ready position, if I want to be kind the lack of a split step. It's starting very late and then having to speed up at the last second to try to catch up. You know they're late moving to the ball so they end up running right into it. They have to speed up their stroke and then you're losing control. You know that's a big one. Also, at that level, the the perception of how to win points. You know you're able to win points a lot of ways that are not going to be able to to be successful at the higher levels, and that's a tough thing, which goes back to what you were saying. You know everybody out there wants to win. You know, and their openings on the court at the 3-0 level, that that aren't going to be there at the higher levels. So yeah, as I said, technical, primarily at that level, 3-5 level, I think you need to become, you know, a little bit more disciplined.

Speaker 2

I mean, I often say well, I think the best tennis in the world of in our world, is 4-0 level ladies, doubles, and I really mean that If you watch them play, you'll see that the points are very long.

Improving Tennis Skills and Doubles Strategy

Speaker 2

They're very strategic, you know the advantage will shift two or three times and then somebody, usually you know, hits a nice shot to win the point. You know, to me, three hard shots in a stupid era is not good tennis. And the reason that the four O level and above ladies are playing like that is because they've they're there, they understand movement, they understand shot selection, you know. So they're in the right position to respond to what's likely to come next. They're choosing their shots that are the least likely that they're going to miss, and then the. That that's all under the umbrella of playing high percentage tennis. And then when you have that kind of tennis, you know, not only is it more fun, it's a better workout. And if you're, you know if you're playing to win, you will win more matches playing that way and then really, you know, hone in more on that, even on the 4-0 level.

Speaker 2

And then then it's I really try to stress um, execution, you know, hone in more on that, even on the 4.0 level. And then then it's I really try to stress execution, you know, with the players, and I'll, after a point, you know you said you would have the players or ask the players to think about what had happened during the previous point. One of the things I like to say to people after they've lost a point, you know, is bad strategy or bad execution, right. So if I, if I, if you and your partner, come to the net right and I try to lob and it's a bad lob, you know three feet over the net and you slam it over it, well, that was a good idea strategically, I just didn't execute it right. Or if I'm going to serve in volley and I hit you a soft serve right to your best strike zone in your forehand and you'd rip it at my feet, well, okay, maybe I shouldn't have served out wide, but the thought is there, I just didn't execute, and I think it's important to make that distinction, you know. So I think the better you get.

Speaker 2

I had a lady a while back and I watched her play a doubles match and she did everything everything, in my opinion right. She'd have a short ball. She had a nice slice forehand, she would slice it come in. She hit every ball to the right spot, but she just didn't hit it well enough, right. So her slice approach shot landed two feet behind the service line. Well, that didn't work out, you know. Her volley sat up a little bit. She tried to hit it somebody's feet and it landed two feet in front of the player so the player could have a swing at the next shot. And so I talked to her after the match and she said you know, I just feel like I need a few more tools. And I said no, no, no, you don't need more tools. You did everything correct. You just have to do it better now, right?

Speaker 2

So I think I think again it goes back to the Vic Braden thing. I think as you get better, you're doing less, but you're doing it better. And then Vic had a great line. He said you know what they say about players with a lot of variety is well, they lose a lot of matches Right now, from 4-0 to 4-5, what does a player need to do better. I think pretty much everything. I don't think there's a huge difference between a 3-5 and 4-0 level player in the way they strike the ball. I think the ball striking is, you know, is kind of similar. It's just the 4-0 level player plays a little bit more intelligently. High percentage and I think they understand tennis a little bit better. The four I do think there's a significant jump in the way of four or five level player strikes the ball, as I think you know, a little bit, a little bit cleaner their movements, better they're fitter. I think it's a different. It's a different then you're starting to get into a little bit more rarefied air, certainly in the in the recreational world.

Speaker 1

Yeah, so, uh, we're going to link to the book in the show notes. People can check it out. Um, you've got solutions to all of these problems that we're talking about here and more. Um, I was going through the seven types of volleys earlier. You've got on serve strategy, return strategy for doubles, a lot of technical stuff. We didn't even get to the mental side of the game, which you have a whole section on, but I wanted to. Is there, before we jump to rapid fire questions, is there anything else you wanted to highlight from the book itself?

Speaker 2

to highlight from the book itself. You know one of the things I like to do when I when I do these things. If, if you know cause I want to, I want to get the book out there. Um, you know. So if, if your listeners if the first you know, uh, 10 listeners want to contact me, I'd be happy to send them a complimentary copy. Okay, that's great, yeah, well, um, okay, yeah, we'll you can get a free copy of the book.

Speaker 1

I've been going through it myself. I promise you it is worth it. It's really practical as far as I rarely see such a practical approach to the game and such a simplified version like you focused on. So you've done a really, really nice job, thank you. So what is your favorite? Uh tennis tournament.

Speaker 2

My favorite tennis tournament, um, probably the U S open cause it's. It's close by to where I live and I I've been there frequently, uh, I've been lucky enough to go to uh to Wimbledon a couple of times. My stepfather actually uh played Davis Cup for Great Britain many years ago and he was actually the number one junior in the world in 1962, I want to say so I have a little connection to that tournament and I've been able to go there a couple of times and actually walk around the grounds when the tournament wasn't going on, which is really cool.

Speaker 1

Cool. What's your favorite tennis book other than your own, winning Ugly?

Speaker 2

by Brad Gilbert.

Speaker 1

Winning Ugly.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I think that's because it's a practical approach. I mean, he's got some funny things in there and he's talking to the club player. He's got a great thing in there that I guess he used to do, you know, when he was playing a match and he was starting to get tired, he'd have a candy bar to get himself, you know, ramped up again. And somebody said, well, what happens here? You're going to get the sugar high, but then you're going to get the crash. What do you? What do you do then? And he said, well, I have another candy bar, which I think is, you know, your listeners and my players. Yeah, yeah, it is, it's.

Speaker 1

It really can help people get over the idea of looking good on the court and hitting the ball harder and hitting the ball cleaner, Trying to focus on your opponent rather than yourself so much. What is your favorite position on the doubles court? So, server returner. Server's partner. Returner's partner.

Speaker 2

Returning serve on the ad side. Okay. Returning serve on the ad side, because when I used to play a lot I had a you know a pretty nice slice back and my forehand was anything but efficient and a lot of the serves just tended to go out wide and that's. You know, that was always kind of a good shot for me, a slice backhand. Return of serve cross court.

Speaker 1

Okay, and you'd follow that in, I imagine. Absolutely, yeah, okay. So last question for you how do we make doubles more popular?

Speaker 2

How do we make doubles more popular? Well, it already is right. Right, it's the game most people play. Um, you know, how do we attract more people to it? I mean, it's really what everybody else says right, try to uh, you know, to show it more on tv, I guess. Um, I think it really gets down to and this is the way I feel about how do we make tennis more popular.

Speaker 2

It really gets down to the pro on the court and I'll track it right back to that first lesson that I had. You know, if that first lesson that I had wasn't a good one, I probably would never play tennis again. So, if you have people that are coming, you know coming to the court, and you know we do a lot of work with our junior players. We practice a lot of doubles. You're right, there's a lot of doubles practice there, because as people do get older, they are going to tend to play more doubles. I'll take it right back to the pro on the court and that's where it kind of instills the passion for tennis and also teaching people to play the right way. I mean, it's incredible when I get my doubles players, even the 3035 level players, moving and hitting. I'll say to them.

Speaker 2

It's amazing, because people will often say doubles is a slow game, and I'll say, well, yeah, bad doubles is a slow game, right, but good doubles if you have four players on the court, with a good pro you know that, knows how to run drills and, can you know, help the players to play better. And then they get those long seven, eight, nine shot rallies where they're moving, switching, faking, poaching. I mean it's just one of the highlights that I get, and you know, well, I've been doing this for a very long time and I still get a huge kick at the end of a long rally, when all four players on the court are just smiling, laughing and they're having a great time. So, yeah, doubles is I mean, doubles is really what most players play. But I'll take it right back down to the up. It's up to us to make it more popular.

Speaker 1

Totally agree, awesome, greg. Any final requests of the audience.

Speaker 2

No, I just want to thank you. I'm a huge fan of of of your podcast and everything you do and I think it's great and I really appreciate you letting me come on. And it's always fun when you get, you know, a couple of guys talking tennis, right? So that's always fun.

Speaker 1

Yeah yeah, it's a never-ending conversation. It's so much fun to learn more and more about the sport and all the different aspects, so thank you a ton for coming on. Thanks everybody for listening. We'll include links to everything we mentioned in the show notes, as well as Greg's email, and you can email him and try to be one of those first 10 people to get a complimentary book. If not, you should buy it on Amazon or wherever you get your books. Thanks, greg, thank you Al.