Doubles Only Tennis Podcast

Reduce These Errors, Improve Your Game: The Stokke 6 for Doubles

• Will Boucek • Episode 194

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0:00 | 59:15

For the strategy nerds... Jonathan Stokke joins the show for a second time as we discuss his Stokke Six. What are the Stokke Six? Simply put, they are errors to avoid that will dramatically improve your game. And I mean dramatically.

Jonathan and I could talk strategy and tactics for days. He's one of my favorite coaches because of his ability to simplify the game and help players focus on the most effective things that lead to winning tennis.

We dive deep into the most common errors:

  • During the first four shots (the most important!)
  • Why net errors frustrate Jonathan so much
  • How to reduce your double faults
  • Your one goal for the serve +1 and return +1
  • Specific drills to improve the Stokke Six
  • and more...

Jonathan's last episode was one of our most popular and I know this one will be as well. Listen to our first conversation here: https://www.thetennistribe.com/jonathan-stokke-interview/


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Reducing Tennis Errors for Doubles

Speaker 1

Today's episode is all about improving your doubles game by reducing the amount of errors you make on the court. Jonathan Stokey comes on the podcast for the second time. If you missed his last episode, I highly recommend it and I will link to it in the show notes as well. And Jonathan has his own podcast, which I was on recently called the Baseline Intelligence Podcast. He has an Instagram account with nearly 100,000 followers at Stoketennis. If you want to check that out and I really really love his content and he seems to nerd out on strategy and tactics as much as I do. So if you want to hear a couple of strategy nerds have a conversation, then that's what you're about to get. So Jonathan came up with this idea of his Stokey six errors, and he came up with it thinking of the singles court, and in this conversation we're going to apply it to the doubles court. So it's all about cutting these very specific errors that he feels like are the most common things that happen on a tennis court, and if you can reduce even two of these errors, then I guarantee you're going to improve your game. So in the conversation, we talk about drills that you can do to reduce some of these errors. We talk about mindset tips and a lot more. So be sure to check out all of Jonathan's stuff after you listen to the episode as well, and I will link to everything in the show notes. But again, this is a very strategic, very tactical episode that I think a lot of you are going to get a ton out of if you can really work on cutting those errors, because tennis, like I've said in the past, is a game of errors, so your focus should be on reducing errors, not hitting more winners. So, without further delay, enjoy this conversation with Jonathan Stokey.

Speaker 1

Hey everyone, welcome to the show. Today we have a returning guest, jonathan Stokey, back. Welcome, jonathan, it's great to be here. So I wanted to have you back on because I watched your YouTube kind of coaching session with Peter Freeman from Crunch Time Coaching. He's actually having Tennis Con 8 here coming up shortly, and you went over the Stokey six and y'all were more focused, I think, in that conversation on singles and these are basically six errors that if club level players that they can avoid, they can dramatically improve their game. And I wanted to have you on to do this for doubles. So talk a little bit about, I guess, to start where the Stokey 6 came from and kind of the story behind it.

Speaker 2

Yeah. So I think it just starts with my overall philosophy. And again, these are just things that I experienced as a player myself when I was a junior and when I was an All-American at Duke, and then I have experiences as a coach, watching my players even more, so I'm more aware of these things. So the number one basic philosophy is that points are lost, not won. Yes, occasionally you will see a club level player just hit a great shot and win a point.

Speaker 2

I understand that that happens, but the majority of points I watch and I experienced as a player are, generally speaking, lost. And so the bigger piece of the pie if you're looking to get better and improve, I'm always going. Can I just get this guy to stop losing so much like that? It sounds so negative, but like, I'm watching you and you're just losing points over and over and they end up happening in a very, very similar way. So I get a little bit of pushback online where people are like no, you don't understand if you saw my four or five league like points are one all the time. Maybe that's the case.

Speaker 1

Like I haven't seen four or five.

Speaker 2

It's not I highly doubt it. I don't want to sound preachy, but all I can say is just in my experience as a coach and a player, that is a fundamental principle that once you accept that you can actually make a very quick leap. Points are usually lost not one and so we've got to learn how to reduce them. So that's kind of like where it came from and I started going. Well, the other part too actually sorry is um, scott Fawcett was on my podcast.

Speaker 2

So he's a golf, he's a very famous golf tactician, it's all about math, and he has five stats called the tiger five, and so golf is very similar. It's not about making birdies, it's about reducing double bogeys and bogeys. It's a very similar concept. And so he actually asked me on the podcast well, what would the tennis equivalent be? And I was like that's a really good question. I can't answer that right now, but a really good question. I can't answer that right now, but I'm going to go think about it. So those two concepts combined is kind of where I came up with the Stokoe 6.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, and it's something I'm always kind of telling my listeners that I learned from Craig O'Shaughnessy. He did this. I think it was in one of his courses on his website, brain Game Tennis. It may have even been a blog post that he did Brain Game Tennis. It may have even been a blog post that he did was he took, and this was in singles, but he took all of, like, the biggest stats that are tracked on the Pro Tour right.

Speaker 1

So you've got winners errors first serve percentage. First serve win percentage. Second serve win percentage. Double faults percentage first serve win percentage. Second serve win percentage. Double faults there was probably 18 or 20 of them and he correlated each one with winning. So it's like you know if you win this particular stat, what are the odds you win the match? And the one that correlated the most with winning was having fewer errors, and it was way. Your odds of winning having fewer errors are way higher than your odds of winning having more winners.

Speaker 1

And, honestly, I've got the data. I should do this for doubles at the pro level. And then I work with a company called Tennis Analytics who gets data for pro matches as well as like club level matches at times. And when you look at the stats across, you know whether it's four or five tennis like you're talking about or pro tennis. The stats change a little, but not that much. Like they, you know and I hear this from listeners or people on email all the time too it's like, oh, but that's pros, they're playing a totally different game. And it's like, no, they're not. The winner to error ratio, for example. Tennis Analytics has a good chart on this and it's like I think pros hit three or four winners for every one error and 3-0 players hit, I think, three winners for every one error. I think pros it's four to one and club level it's three to one, or maybe the opposite, I don't remember, but it's like it's the same trend, right? It's like the same idea, right?

Speaker 2

And I actually I did an Instagram reel. This was probably a couple of months ago now and just going back to the whole idea of errors, I think people if I want everyone out listening to like do a deep dive and actually think about this, maybe for a couple minutes after. But I think people are more afraid of what their opponent can do to them and they're less afraid of actually missing. So they miss a lot of balls that if their whole objective was just to make it, they could. But they went for an aggressive shot and then end up missing because they either were worried that if they just put it in play, their opponent would hit a winner which won't happen that often or they go. Well, I have to make my opponent miss and I'm like, no, they're going to miss for free, you just got to give them a chance.

Speaker 2

Yes, there's a place in the game for forcing errors I'm not dismissing that but they feel this pressure to always be doing it and it just leads to them missing more. And so if you go, you know what? If I made my last shot in the point, I played a solid point You'll be surprised, number one, how relaxed you feel, but you actually won't hit less winners Like. You'll still end up just accidentally hitting the same amount. It's just you're going to miss a little bit less.

Speaker 1

And now that four six set will become a six four set because you just got rid of four stupid mistakes. Yeah, I think, um, so I would encourage people listening. If you're questioning some of this, you should actually go and watch your teammates play a league match or tournament match or something. Grab a pen and paper and go sit on the sidelines and actually chart this and after, at the end of each point, write down W for winner and E for error, and at the end of the match you can look at the number of errors and you can even divide it up by like point one, so you can create two columns and you can do team A on the left side, team B on the right side and then, if team A won the point, then you do either a W or an E under the team A column and then in the next line, you do a W or E under the team B column if they won that point.

Speaker 1

And it's an easy way to chart the match and really it'll kind of blow your mind the first time you do it, because I've done this myself before with, uh, with actually some 50 matches and it was when I was first getting into all this data and, yeah, I remember, at the end of the match, adding it all up, and I was like man, there were like six errors in this entire I mean six winners in this entire match and like 30 errors. Like it's unbelievable. Um, well, I think you could also.

Speaker 2

You could also do it for the pros too. I mean a lot of the people I work with remotely, you know. I'll say, hey, did you watch that? You know? Did you watch Pagula? Who was it against?

Improving Tennis Returns and Plus Ones

Speaker 2

Oh, anna Samova in the finals and everyone knows I'm the Pagula fan out there. She was up, she won the first set and she was up. Maybe maybe it was one zero 40 love, but she had won 15 to 16 points. And then she just made like on the next six points, like five of just the worst errors, and I was like pulling my hair out. I'm like, oh, just be solid, you know. And she won the tournament. She's one of the best players in the world and even she will give away a ton of what she would probably call free points. And Samova is also in the finals and she was doing the same thing right back. Like there's just this myth that people are just always playing this amazing tennis and it's constant and errors and poor points are the outlier, and it's the exact opposite. And once you embrace that, tennis gets a lot easier to get better at.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it's a lot easier to win. For sure, You're somebody. I feel like every time we talk we could go on for like two or three hours because you love the stats and strategy and tactics as much as I do. Let's dive into the Stokey six. So what is number one?

Speaker 2

So number one is missed returns. The first three are in the first four shots, but the most common one is going to be a missed return, right? So why the first four shots? Just because we know that points are right. So why the first four shots? Just because we know that points are short. So majority of points are four shots or less. And then obviously we know from Craig's data that you know, the most common point in tennis is, or the rally length is one which means a serve was made and then a return was missed, like that happens the most. And so you go. If I can just make more returns, once I'm in the point, you're probably winning 40, 45% at worst, even if you think your return is not that great. So instead of worrying so much of, oh I got to hit this amazing cross court by my opponent or I've got to hit this sick down the line, just make the return.

Speaker 2

And yes, there are going to be times where the opponent hits a serve. That's really quality, it's not your fault, that's fine, that's part of the game. But we're talking about some maybe some easy second serve return errors or you're missing a return wide. I mean before we, right before we started it, the doubles court is 36 feet wide. Like why? Why are we missing return wide? Because we're scared of the opponent net player who probably is just like you and isn't fully comfortable at the net and doesn't finish every volley. So that's just what I see a lot is we've got this huge court A lot of times the serve is not incredible and we're just donating one or one and a half points per service game to our opponent because we've just not put the return in play, and so part of what goes with that is getting a little more comfortable with.

Speaker 2

Maybe occasionally you're going to make a return that's not that quality and they will hit a volley winner and you clap your racket and you just play the next point and you move on. You don't start going. You know what I should do is maybe just add a bunch of risks to my return and now, instead of them hitting one or two volley winners. I'm just going to give them three free returners yeah that's not good go ahead, yeah, and really like.

Speaker 1

One thing I tell people is like you're waiting, even if they're like making a quality first serve, you're hitting a return in, they're hitting a volley winner. They're just making a quality first serve, you're hitting a return in, they're hitting a volley winner, they're just doing their job right. And what you're doing, especially against teams who are good at serving right that means they have a good server and a good net player and what you're doing is trying to make a high percentage of returns, like you're talking about, and you're waiting for that one game where the server misses three or four first serves and the net player misses one or two of those volleys and then that's your opportunity to break. So you want to stay consistent, like you're saying, with those returns and something that we talked about last week on your podcast so people listening, jonathan hosts the Baseline Intelligence podcast, which you should check out.

Speaker 1

I was on recently and we talked about the lob return and I think it was something I found in the data doing the Team USA scouting for the Olympics at the pro level, the highest level in the world this is studying Tommy Paul and Taylor Fritz. Tommy Paul's lob return off of first serve, his win percentage was better than his driven return off of a first serve. So at the club level I would imagine that might even be more effective, because our overheads are so much worse and the lob is pretty similar, like maybe we won't get it quite as deep, but the net player is not going to be able to backpedal as quickly and if they do, their overhead is going to be much worse. So I would encourage people to really add that lob return to their game, especially against first serves. And then the other mistake in doubles that I see is against weak second serves, people trying to just pummel the return and they make errors.

Speaker 2

Right, and there's a place to be aggressive on a second serve return. I mean, if you hit three thunderous returns and then you miss one on a second serve, I'd be like that's probably a good ratio, like that's fine, you're going to be okay. It's when you're missing every other one right, and the ones that go in really aren't doing a whole lot. So, yeah, you just want to keep it very, very simple. If you've made your last shot, I think it's good to adopt the mindset you go hey, that's a really, really solid point. Oh, but my return was short and weak, that's okay. Like I know you didn't mean to, but if that's your mistake is hitting a weak ball in and then when you hit your average or good shot they're even better. Like that's a ton of pressure over time. If your bad shots are just free points, that takes a lot of pressure off the opponents and makes it a lot easier to lose a match. So put the return in play. If you need to take a step back, great. If you need to lob exactly down the middle of the court, then do that.

Improving Tennis Serve and Shot Selection

Speaker 2

I mean, go watch a video. I actually just did this with a guy. It was more for singles, but he said, well, if I hit short, you know, the guy just stepped up and crushes it. I was like, oh okay, let's just, let's just start from the front, let's go back and look for that. And I just froze the video on swing vision every time the ball landed in the service box and like the guy wouldn't even step up and hit it. Like the guy had like three winners and I'm like, do you see what I'm watching? Now he's like, oh my god, I never. He's like I just only remember the times that they crush it. Yeah, I feel like that's how everyone sees it. Oh see, he's just gonna put an easy volley away. Yes, five times a match, the other 50 times you're gonna be just fine.

Speaker 2

So, number one make returns yeah, all right, let's move on to uh number two so I put this down as missed plus ones, and in doubles specifically, I'm referring to a baseline shot. So my general philosophy another general philosophy I have is that it's better to obviously make errors on offense play. So if I'm way behind the baseline and I'm on defense and I missed the ball like I am livid with myself, there's not a whole lot of great things that could have happened. So make sure you just make the point. If you get a plus one as a volleyer in doubles, if you're being aggressive, that means sometimes you're going to miss a volley Like I'm actually okay with that.

Speaker 2

So this is mainly for the server or the returner. When you've got that first ground stroke, it's the miss plus one and again it's the same idea as the return. I've got a 36-foot wide court. Generally speaking, there's only one person at the net, which means I have a ton of room and they're usually not comfortable. We don't need to be insanely aggressive, we just need to be simple. We made our serve and we made the next ground stroke. We made our serve and we made the next ground stroke. We made our return and we made the next ground stroke.

Speaker 2

Incredible job by you, right? If any of those shots have great quality, wow, A plus and a racket clap, but you don't have to have that every time. And so, again, if you just go back and watch people play, it's a lot of off-balance shots. They might go down the line on the first ball trying to pass them. They might be worried about the person in the net and dump that first ball in the net. So, again, it sounds very, very simple, but, like I think, if you go back and watch your matches and again, if people aren't watching their matches on video, that's an issue. But I'll bet you most players have 10 or so first ball ground stroke errors in a doubles match and you're like the goal is to get that to five. Yeah, Like you're going to. You can't just not miss, that's impossible. But let's just reduce those plus one errors.

Speaker 1

So with these plus ones in doubles it's a little bit different, like you said. So we've got the net players. I think, if we're just talking about the server and the returner, a big component of it is going to be shot selection right. A big component of it is going to be shot selection right. So, recognizing if my plus one is more of an offensive shot versus a defensive shot, um, talk a little bit about that and how we can reduce our errors on the plus one, maybe for offensive shots and then defensive shots are you saying how you reduce it, like technically or like just the mindset?

Speaker 1

no, just like the mind mindset and shot selection. So I'm thinking like, a lot of times I'll see a server hit a good first serve, a weak return comes over the net and they have a short forehand and they miss it. Um, so that would be a scenario where, like, it's an offensive shot, right, they have a short forehand, they're on offense, they're um, to use a phrase I don't remember where I heard this, but, uh, it might have been craig o'shaughnessy um, where you're ahead in the point. So, like, during, like, if you freeze frame the point, right there, you're ahead in the point, you should probably win that point. And then they make an error on that serve plus one. So that would be offensive, right, so like me it's.

Speaker 2

Hopefully it doesn't sound like I'm contradicting myself. I don't mind the occasional error if it's on offense, because if you're hitting a ball faster and you're trying to do something, it's a little riskier, like I actually had one parent one time say I just want my daughter to hit faster but also just be more consistent, and I was like, oh, that's all, that's a great idea. I had never thought about that. So if I'm asking you to step up on a short ball and play offensively, you will randomly miss some balls and, by the way, that means sometimes you're going to miss the net because you're hitting faster. You can't hit with pace and height right. Missing wide on a short plus one is probably not ideal because, like I said, the court is huge and the net player is probably scared of you to begin with. So there's no reason to be going angle. But I'm okay with that occasional. You know I'm three quarter court and shorter. You should absolutely step up and apply a little pressure. That's fine. And again, you just have to keep this tally in your head. Are you missing every other one? Then you're being too aggressive. Are you missing one out of every five of those short balls? That's great. You're probably right where you should be.

Speaker 2

If the returner is constantly putting me behind the baseline or in an uncomfortable position, that's where I would say I don't care if it's a lob, I don't care if you go through the middle and it's a high volley for your opponent. Let's just be solid and accept that they have earned the right based on their return or whatever it was that they have put me in a bad position. I've done my job, being solid, I've made them hit a volley winner and I can move on with my life. There's definitely a different mentality to those two plus ones and, as always, the rules is always it depends Like every situation is different. These rules are generally speaking, but that's a good kind of different mindset for the short ball versus the one from behind the baseline yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 1

I think those defensive shots, practicing that defensive lob is so big. Um, there's especially from the deuce court. There's so many players who try to hit this running down the line, forehand winner, when they're like off balance and on defense and it's like, and that is a one out of five shot, like that is, if you want to win the match, that's not a good shot to be going for, right, all right, so let's move on to the next one.

Speaker 2

I actually almost you know what. I may end up removing this one in the future. Stay tuned. Number three is double, double faults. Okay, and the reason why I would remove it is because this is something people are so sensitive towards. You know, they finish a match. I had double faults, like six times, okay, and I'm like, okay, well, that means you played. I don't know 80 other points, like, do you know how many of anything else you did? No, just double faults. It's the only thing you want to keep track of. So I don't want people to obsess about it too much.

Speaker 2

But again, just with being solid, let's make sure we're making our serve, you know, oh, your second serve is slow and oh my God, they've been ripping it. Okay, make them rip it. And guess what, if your second serve is so slow? For whatever your level is no-transcript, you know, and we'll be able to make that ball Like we can. We can figure something out, but we need to make them play, and sometimes people either go for too much on their first serve and so they're just having to hit a lot of second serves.

Speaker 2

Sometimes they're so worried about the returner, but again you're just donating free points, and so at Duke, you know it used to be a pro set when I was there, but I'd go back and check and I'd be like, okay, you missed eight returns. You double faulted four times. So that's 12 points that our opponents never had to play against you. They just had to make a serve or just stand in the box while you miss serves against them. That's a lot of points you're donating. What if we cut it down to six? We're already going to get better without even learning how to hit a better poaching volley or whatever. So I know people are sensitive to that and that's the only reason why I would get rid of that one. But again, it's just being solid in the first four shots.

Speaker 1

No, I think it's an important one, especially at the club level.

Speaker 1

I feel like it's less common at the pro level, but I I mean I, to be honest, I I have analyzed some players who that double fault percentage creeps up to near like 10% at the pro level and when it gets around that like 7, 8% mark, like it's something they've got to work on, you know.

Speaker 1

So I think at every level it's an important one. Encourage people to do and this is something I learned from analyzing the pros is see if you can track and maybe get a teammate to do this with you or something, and you can do this on first and second serves, but see if you can track where you miss your faults, because a lot of players not everyone, but a lot of players have a very significant tendency to either miss in the net or miss long. So there was somebody I was analyzing a few months ago and I just looked at three matches and the player had double faulted I think 20 times in three matches or something, and 17 of the 20 second serve misses were in the net. So it was like insane, like 85% in the net. So it's like okay, just make sure all your double faults are long, and if you do that and just simply aim higher on all your second serves, you're going to end up with, instead of 20 double faults you know, 15 or 12 or something like that in those three matches.

Speaker 1

So if you have one of those tendencies, it's really important to know that.

Speaker 2

Yeah, one side note I would make, and this is like a recent theme. I think every coach gets stuck on things and cycles of their career, because tennis is a simple sport and so if you just said the same thing for 40 years, you'd get bored. But one thing that's been working for me is just asking yourself the question is what I'm doing working. So in that example, this person is hitting serves in the net. Okay, you ask that person is it physically possible for you to hit the next serve over the net? If I gave you a million dollars, could you do it? They'd probably be like well, yeah, I can do that. Like, okay, you should look into that. You should probably do that, right, well, I don't know if it's going to go in. Well, how's hitting it in the net every time working for you? And, by the way, now at least you've made the opposite error, so we have a feel for what might be correct.

Speaker 2

So people just get stuck in this loop and they're doing the same thing and they're attempting. In their mind, they think they're trying to solve it, but in reality the output is just the same. Hey, here's 17 serves in the net. Just Just ask yourself is that working. Can I do the opposite of that? The answer is usually yes, unless it's an emotional thing, and so just let's just do it now, instead of adding 10 more double faults in the net before we fix it.

Improving Tennis Stroke Consistency

Speaker 1

Yeah, 100% yeah. So step one is just recognizing where you're making the errors. So this player had no clue that 85% of their second serve faults were in the net. So making them recognize that of their second serve faults were in the net. Um, so making them recognize that. And then next time you go, practice, like, set up targets two feet behind the surface line for those second serves and practice hitting those targets. You know, um, because a lot of people get caught up with like oh, I keep missing in the net Cause it's like my elbow or I'm dropping my shoulder, and it's like just aim higher, like everything else will take care of itself. Just aim higher and it'll fix it. Can I give you a?

Speaker 2

stupid story. My last year in no, sorry, my first year 18s and juniors, rajiv and I were. We won Kalamazoo, but we were on our way to winning it and I was starting to get a little nervous. And so each round at Kalamazoo, round of 16, quarter semis, my serve was just feeling like a little weirder. Each time it just it was going in just didn't feel quite right. And we won Kalamazoo. Okay, great. So we're in the US Open in two weeks. That's awesome. I'm excited. But I'm also like what the hell is going on with my serve?

Speaker 2

We played grass courts the next week and I played Ryler to heart, who ended up being a great college player. I think he got to like top 200 in the world. I play him in the backdrop of this ITF and I double faulted probably 45 times in a three set match which, by the way, amazing job by me to make it three sets with 45 double faults. But like I was just lying to people, I was like, oh, I have a shoulder injury. Oh, like I just was making stuff up because it was so embarrassing.

Speaker 2

And I went home and I was at Vandermeer at the time and Dennis Vandermeer was like, hey, can you hit a serve for me real quick and have it hit the baseline. I was like okay, and like I did that. He's like that's awesome. He's like now can you hit a serve and hit the bottom of the net, the bottom square. I was like, yeah, pretty sure, boom. And he's like, okay, now can you just hit one on the service line.

Speaker 2

I just looked at him. I was like this is stupid, like what a stupid game, right, but like he just made it athletic. I was kind of in my own head. He's like you can hit deeper on command when you want, like you're in your own head with this thing and you can make these small adjustments. And that was like a very helpful. There was also a tossing issue for me which we fixed, kind of like you're making this bigger than it is, just go on the extremes, and so that really helped me. But I understand people getting stuck in the loop, but if you take a step back and just go, what's the issue? You can usually fix it.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I like that phrase to go on the extremes, like just do the extreme one direction, the extreme the other direction, and then you can kind of narrow your gap and kind of your feel on the serve or whatever the stroke is. Yeah, gap and kind of your feel on the serve or whatever the stroke is, yeah, I do that a lot with actually angle volleys. When I coach people to hit angle volleys I tell them like I'd rather you miss it because we're practicing like those super sharp angles from really close to the net and I'm like I'd rather you miss it in the net or miss it wide than miss it past the cone that I have set up, because I want you feeling the ball off the strings and feeling that super sharp angle and after you miss a bunch of them in practice you won't need as big of an angle once you get to the match.

Speaker 1

So, that makes it a lot easier. So let's move on to number four.

Speaker 2

Number four, and these things layer on top of themselves. So what I'd love people to start doing is like actually keeping a tally. So I double faulted. Okay, that's one Stokey six error. Right, I missed a return, that's one. But number four is any ground stroke wide, feet wide. There's one player on the other side of the net that probably isn't this advanced elite net player.

Speaker 2

Missing a ground stroke going wider than those people to me is a complete mental error and I understand that there's a physical breakdown because obviously you did not aim wider than the court so something physical happened. But if you had picked a bigger target, that poor stroke would have still found the court somewhere, right. So going back to like the plus one, if I missed a plus one wide, that's two Stokey six errors at the same time. That's a two pointer. That's brutal. I hate that. Not only did you miss the first ball, but you missed it wide.

Speaker 2

So number four is any type of ground stroke missed wide, and it kind of goes back to what I just said. But missing it on the first ball is twice as bad. For me, it's like you did two things at the same time. I just don't understand the concept and a lot of times. My recommendation would be like don't even worry about the net player If you're missing wide, cause you're. So we actually did a drill this morning where the ladies were in a very aggressive position and then all of a sudden we started missing ground strokes wide. And I'm like, just for the record, I've only seen like two good volleys today, like we're positioning is awesome, but we still can't volley any better, like we don't need to be missing wide. So almost just delete that person from your mind, pick a big target, hit the quality ball and if they end up poaching, good for them. It really doesn't happen that often.

Smart Shot Target Selection in Tennis

Speaker 1

Yeah, it's something I think you talked with Peter about is the, I guess, the margin of error on your shot I think you had a different word for it and you talked about the pro players, how theirs is a lot smaller. And recently I actually did a Instagram lesson yesterday, one of those short videos on Alcaraz at the Olympics and as of right now it's being blocked by Instagram because of copyright issues or whatever, but I'll try to figure that out, but I think it's still up on Facebook. But Alcaraz hits this great inside-in forehand winner from the ad court off of a lob from the opponent. So they were in a down-the-line rally. His opponent was in the ad court, he was in the deuce court. His opponent was in the ad court. He was in the deuce court.

Speaker 1

His opponent hits a backhand lob cross court and Alcaraz is fast enough to run all the way around and get a forehand. He hits this inside end winner down the line. It lands barely outside of the singles line, like barely into the doubles alley and it was one of the things I pointed out like he's not aiming for the doubles alley, like he's aiming for the singles court here and I think for the club level player we should basically never aim for the doubles alley, um, I think probably, depending on your skill level, like if you're a 3-0 player, you should probably never aim for even within like two or three feet of the singles line, maybe even further, um, and then as you get more advanced you can get a little bit more aggressive with that. But talk a little bit about, I guess, that margin of error and correct anything if I didn't explain it right.

Speaker 2

No, that's good. So this also the idea, comes from Scott Fawcett, decade Golf, the guy that I have my podcast and I had followed him for years. He calls it a shot pattern. So if I put a single tennis ball and I place it down on the court let's say right in the middle of the ad court depth and width wise, it's just right in the middle of that back box and I feed Jesse Pagula backhands, I go hey, hit that ball. Is she going to hit that ball every time? No chance Like she's going to hit exactly where that one ball is. No way. She might hit it once every 30 times Maybe. I mean it's a very, very small target Maybe once every 30, but she 'll be close to it because she's a pro, so she might miss it. Three feet left, then three feet right, then six feet short, then five feet long. Her pattern is probably 18 feet long and seven feet wide on average and of course that can change. When she's in trouble it gets even bigger.

Speaker 2

But if you watch pros, you watch Novak play a tiebreaker. He hits a lot of ground strokes on the service line. Do you really think he was aiming for the service line? There's no way he hit that shorter than he thought. And whenever a pro misses, they obviously hit it lower, wider or deeper than they wanted to, and so a amateur shot pattern is absolutely gigantic.

Speaker 2

So one thing I have like the lower level player I'm like, hey, you should just aim middle of the court. And they always say, well, I don't want to hit middle. I'm like, don't worry, you're not going to hit it where you're aiming. That's actually the last place I think it's going to go is middle. And so you have to actually be honest with yourself.

Speaker 2

And so when I'm hitting a cross court ground stroke in doubles you know the doubles alley is four and a half feet wide I would probably say like for me, I'm aiming two feet inside the singles line and I'm a I'm a really good player. Oh, you're a three five, and I'm a I'm a really good player, oh, you're a three five. I would even aim four feet inside the single sideline. So now you have a nine and a half foot margin for error which you are going to use a lot. I think people again, once you can accept you don't hit the ball where you aim, it gets very, very easy to pick these smart targets. Everyone always thinks like oh, this feels good, oh, I know I can hit the shot, and then they attempt it and then they go. Why did I do that?

Speaker 2

And you just have to accept. I have this pattern, I have this kind of oval. Where can I place that oval in the court? So most of my outcomes are positive outcomes for me and that is the whole idea, and that's why missing wide for me is like I still have hair thankfully I have short hair but like I want to just rip it out when I see one of my players miss wide.

Maximizing Tennis Shot Placement in Doubles

Speaker 1

Yeah, just just move it in with the target it reminds me of those players, you see um, this is probably exclusively at the club level, but who have these and it's usually a guy. They have these big first serves. They're they're swinging really hard on these first serves and their first serve percentage is like 30% and it's like they get free points when it goes in. But they're like, oh, like my serve was just off today and I'm like, dude, you're going too big, like you probably have an over 50% first serve percentage once every five matches. Like this is not your serves off today, like you're just going for too much, absolutely. It kind of reminds me of that a little bit. But one question I have for you with this oval is why do you think the depth is larger than the width?

Speaker 2

it's a really good question, I think, because, especially as you get better, tennis is a lifting game, so you're swinging more low to high than you are like across the ball. So if you saw someone and they swung straight horizontally, well then, if you don't time that perfectly, it could be a really, really wide dispersion. But if you're watching a gula hit a backhand as she's approaching the ball, it's really more low to high. So the strings are kind of on the plane that they're going to be on. Yes, if her racket is half a degree off, that accounts for the three, four feet. But if she rolls it just a touch, or if she hits it one square off the sweet spot, well then it loses mile per hour and it goes shorter, right. So that that is my.

Speaker 2

Actually no one's ever asked me that, but on the spot, that's what I would think is that, since it's a lifting game, your strings are generally facing the target. But you know, if you hit it a little faster or if you hit it two feet higher on accident, well that's going to go much deeper. You know, and so you can see, pros will hit balls on the. They hit balls on the service line all the time. I know people want to think they never do, but they also miss deep. Yeah, so from the service line to the baseline is 18 feet. So if you watch someone and they hit one ball in the service line at that point and then the next ball they miss three feet deep, you're like, wow, that was a 21 foot difference between those two shots. I guarantee you, where they weren't aiming at either of those two targets, they were probably aiming quarter court somewhere in the middle.

Speaker 1

Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, that that makes sense. So like the swing path is a lot steeper at the higher levels um, yes, yeah, lifting game and the strings are on target longer.

Speaker 2

But again, I even for if I do this drill with a 3-0 and I'll put a ball down and I'll take a video so I can just show them where their balls landed. It's still an oval. It's still always deeper than it is wide.

Speaker 1

Okay, what is number five?

Speaker 2

Ground strokes in the net. So again, it's the first obstacle. In tennis, if you really want to never miss the net, you can. You just aim higher. It's not more complicated than that. Now, in doubles, why don't people aim higher? I actually don't know, because most people don't like their overheads. It's a little bit awkward if there's a good opponent who gets very tight to the net. Sometimes that high ball is a little weird. And again, it's the same idea Even if I aim high. Let's say I'm aiming five feet over the net in doubles.

Speaker 2

Okay, will I ever accidentally hit lower than I aimed? Yes, so I'm still going to hit just as many of those nice low ground strokes that are tough for people to poach on. It's just going to be an accident. If I hit that ball perfectly, it might be a high volley for them, it might. It also might not. And if I accidentally hit it a little higher than I intended, now it's actually a really good lob on accident. But no free points are being given and I'm going to accidentally hit plenty of really, really effective shots.

Speaker 2

And even the one that might not be, people still miss volleys all the time. So again, net and wide errors to me are primarily mental. I think if you aim and just play with discipline, even if your strokes are not amazing, you can probably really really reduce those two. Missing deep is different for me and it's not one of my Stokoe six, because you have to have a closed racket face and get topspin on the ball at a certain point and you're going to have to miss somewhere. So like I can't just tell you to not miss, but missing net for me I just again, it's not quite as bad as missing wide, but it's close, they have a battle.

Speaker 1

Yeah, missing deep, I feel like, is usually if I miss deep, it's like a good miss, right, like I missed a lob a foot or two long, or I hit a topspin forehand, that I made good contact, I hit it well, it's just, like you know, eight or 12 inches long, that's a good miss. Yeah, one thing with missing in the net I guess with doubles that's different is the formation or the positions of the opponents. Right, so we can have one up, one back, we can have two back and we can have two up. Even at the pro level, I do see players missing in the net with two players back. That that's when I would talk about pulling your hair out, like that's when I want to pull my hair out. I'm like both players are back. How on earth could you miss the net? Like, why are you trying to keep the ball low? Um, but with both up, I think the important thing is noticing the position of the two opponents. Which player tends to close a little bit harder, and then you can use that lob like you're talking about. And then something else that came to mind for me is this was back in, I think, 2019.

Speaker 1

So I was a four or five at the time and our team in Austin ended up going to nationals and I played doubles a few times with this guy from Germany. He played club tennis in Germany, really high level. He definitely should not have been a 4'5". We got a lot of complaints about it. But he hit these really high topspin ground strokes and when I would play doubles with him we'd inevitably face some teams who would serve in volley or both get to the net.

Improving Tennis Shot Efficiency in Matches

Speaker 1

We inevitably faced some teams who would like serve in volley or both get to the net and I was always about like dipping my forehand low at their feet. And he just kept his ground strokes the exact same. They were like six to eight feet over the net, really heavy. They would land with a lot of depth if the ball got back to the baseline and he didn't change them at all when the opponents got to the net and it was crazy to me how much our opponents struggled with this ball, like these were high volleys that in my mind were supposed to be easy.

Speaker 1

But because he had good spin on them, decent pace and a lot of time, he would put it on the backhand side of the opponent, like they would end up just shanking it short and we'd have an easy put away or they'd miss. It was really crazy to me. So I think for club players, sometimes those higher volleys, especially the high backhand volley, are really really difficult, even more difficult than those ones you hit low over the net and I understand the idea of hey, there's two people up so we want to dip it low over the net.

Speaker 2

And I understand the idea of hey, there's two people up so we want to dip it low at their feet. I absolutely understand that and if you can execute that, that's an awesome play. I'm all for that. If you can make one and then miss one, you're not good enough to do that. You have to accept that and go damn, hitting low would be the right play. I just don't have the ground strokes to do that. So I've got to aim with a little more height and just be simple and use my legs and track down one volley and they'll probably miss the second one, right, but there's a. Then I hear some people say well, I have to try that shot because I'd have to learn how to hit it if I want to level up, like I have to learn how to hit a dipper. That's just not how it works.

Speaker 2

It's almost disrespectful to people who have learned the shot, like it took me thousands and tens of thousands and watching video of reps to get really good doubles volleys. It didn't take one virtual lesson and I went on the ball machine one day and now I know how to do it. And so with all these things, we're talking about reducing errors, like, yes, you do need to learn how to hit quality shots, but the time to work on that is not just solely in match play. Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 1

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, one of the drills that I haven't been playing recently, but last summer I was playing a lot more and I was out there with one of my friends who coaches and we would feed to each other forehands and I worked on those specific shots. I set up a target on the singles line, probably four or five feet past the net, and I would try to just roll it and dip it at that ad court player's backhand volley. I would also set one up four or five feet behind the net, right on the center service line, so right through the middle, and then I would set up a target deep just inside the singles line, so just to push the ad court player back.

Speaker 1

And, depending on the ball he fed me, I would just choose a target and mix it up, but I would hit I don't know and he'd feed to me for like 10 minutes and I'd hit 100, 200 balls in like 10 minutes or something. I don't know how many exactly, but over the course of like a month or two, like those shots got a lot better. But yeah, you have to put in the work 100%. So let's do number six, all right.

Speaker 2

So in my single Soki six. This would be a change of direction there. So in singles I hate. I mean, just go cross court 90%. If you want to cross court 100% of the time in singles, you're probably making the optimal decision 85% of the time, which I guarantee is higher than the decision-making you're currently making. So if you just blanket statements that I will only go cross-court, and that's why that one kills me, so the all-time worst Stokoe 6 error is you miss a plus one wide while changing directions. That's a three pointer. That is like go sit down on the bench and think about what you've done, type of thing.

Speaker 2

The reason why I don't have that in doubles is because, number one, the court is nine feet wider and you are going to have to go down the line. I mean, if you play me and you never go down the line, I'm going to poach on you every time. So there is some implied risk that you will eventually have to take. So that is not this. The number six for doubles I put is volleying wide. So again, if I'm closing the net and I'm a menace up there and I can play with some speed and pace, I can go at my opponent net player's feet. I can stick it deep and then get my overhead, but I don't have to always go around these two players.

Speaker 2

I know there's an extra person covering the court, but I feel like that is the gut reaction I see a lot of people make is angle right off the bat and, generally speaking, people don't get close to the net, which makes the angle volley even more difficult. Right. So this one's tricky because, like I said, when you're at the net and you're playing offense, I am okay with the occasional error. I actually think most volleys that you miss should probably be in the net, because you are trying to keep a ball lower right, you can't hit a volley with great height. So I'm like you know what, If you hit the top of the tape here and there, I understand that you're trying to hit hard, Missing wide.

Speaker 2

I don't really. I just don't get that one. And so if you're going to be at the net, you're going to be taking balls. Go with their feet, go through them, go middle with pace Number one. They're probably going to miss that coming back to you, or they'll give you an even easier ball, which you can then either put away with an overhead or a volley.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I feel like I should do an episode on like the different types of volleys. I talked with I think it was with Peter recently about all the different types of volleys or maybe it was someone else. But yeah, I think some of these offensive volleys missing in the net is understandable, like you said. The one I have issue with is the transition volley. Like when I see transition volleys missed in the net, when somebody's like hitting a volley from the service line or from just inside the service line and they're moving forward, I'm like this is not the ball to end the point on right. Like this is a transition ball, I want you placing it deep to the baseline player and then getting to the net and then on the next one if you miss in the net, I'm okay with that.

Speaker 1

But I feel like so many players miss that transition volley in the net because they're trying to keep it low and I just don't think that's necessary. And then with the angles and missing wide a lot of that it goes back to the drill I was talking about earlier is like, in practice, miss as many wide as you can and go for that sharper and sharper angle and then that'll make it so much more comfortable when you're in a match. You don't have to go that sharp and then it's going to be much easier. You can aim for that. You know inside that singles line and still hit that angle and you'll miss a few wide of the singles line, which will still be in, and you'll miss a few long of the singles line or short of your target, and all those still land in because you've kind of refined those skills a bit. So if people out, there.

Improving Tennis Shot Consistency and Strategy

Speaker 2

If let's say they use like Swing Vision or something and they've got matches, if they go back and they go, okay, I'm going to chart how many Stokies 6s I have. Okay, so I missed a return. Okay, that's one. I double faulted two. I missed a plus one wide. Okay, damn, that's three. You know like, oh, oh, that's not great. And you keep tracking. You go okay, my score for that match was 50, okay. And then you go and you find a match where you won you felt like you played great. And you go oh, I only had 35 or 30. And you start going. You chart this every time and you go okay, I went from 50 on average. Now I'm only making 20 of those errors combined. I guarantee you are playing better. Yeah, I guarantee it. Like it's not.

Speaker 2

The goal is not to get to zero. Some people I don't have a problem with this, I know most people do like the idea of like oh, I want to get rid of missing. Oh, it's so scary, that's so tentative. Oh, I'm not going to accelerate anymore. That's not what I'm saying and you're going to miss, no matter what.

Speaker 2

That is the game we play. Like, I think even if you have the day of your life, you're going to miss one out of every four points. That's just reality. I'm just seeing if we can get these errors. If you make 30 a match, let's get it down to 20. And then let's see if we can get down to 18. And then we'll see if we can get down to 17. And every point counts, you know. And if you go, I can get rid of one of these in a match, congratulations, that's awesome. So it's not panic because you double faulted and missed a return and, oh my god, how can I make this mistake? That's not the mindset, it's just reducing these. And once you actually start to have metrics to show you that you have, you're gonna probably be like oh yeah, I'm winning matches. I didn't really feel like I hit the ball that well. That is goal. If you can only win a match when you're hitting the ball incredibly well, your tactic might be suboptimal.

Speaker 1

Yeah, 100%. Yeah. I feel like if you just charted, like the return errors and the plus one errors like that alone would probably bring if you're a 4.0, that would probably bring you up to a 4.5. If you can improve that by 20%, you know what I actually question for you.

Speaker 2

You're back on my podcast. But I agree with you, if you just learn how to make those balls, everyone thinks the difference between a four or five and a five oh is speed of shot. Oh, they can do all these things, they can hit all these shots better. And my take on it just from my experience again is I'm watching, I'm like, oh no, they just missed that ball 2% less than you. I don't know who the better hitter is. I watched the four hit with a four or five. I don't know who the better player is.

Speaker 1

It's just you make less errors. Yeah, I think I don't know. Something came to mind when you were going through these is that I guess there's a reason everybody hates playing pushers and there's a reason that pushers win is because they don't make these errors. So when you're talking about the difference between like 4-0 and 4-5, some people will ask me like 3-5 to 4-0, whatever. I think it's all like very player specific, right. Like some people like for me, so I'm a 5-0 now.

Speaker 1

Now, like what's the difference between me and a 5-5? Like I've probably maxed out my strategy. Like I like I go through doubles matches. I mean, if I went out and played right now because I hadn't been playing recently, I'd probably make some strategic errors because I haven't been playing a lot. But when I'm playing a lot of tennis, like I'll go through a whole match and and after every point, point I'm doing this like I'm like okay, did I make any strategic mistakes there? Like I'm always making technical mistakes, but like did I make a shot selection error or did I move to the wrong spot? And I'll go through a whole match and maybe like two or three times I'm like ah, I probably should have done that and I should have known that with the information I had at the time. So for me it's like technical, it's like I got to get out on the practice court and I got to improve my forehand, I got to improve my serve, I got to hit a hundred returns, like that's the difference between me and a five five right now.

Speaker 2

So I want to be.

Speaker 1

Oh, go ahead yeah.

Speaker 1

No you go ahead. So I just all I'm saying is I think it's dependent on the person and for that like for me, it's basically just the consistency of the shot, whereas I will play against other 5-0 players who would wipe me off the court in singles, but I am so much smarter than them on the doubles court that I can beat them on the doubles court and like they have a much more consistent topspin forehand than me, they have a better serve than me, they have a better return than me, but I know how to move at the net better and I'm making the right shot selection the majority of the time and they're not I'm forcing them down the line. So for that player they have to work on their like strategic and tactical mindset and shot selection.

Speaker 2

Right, and just to be crystal clear what you were saying. Yes, they're like a four or five hits the ball better than a three, five, a five, five hits it better than a four or five. But when you said the technical element and you actually added it after I interrupted you four times, like it's the, the consistency, it's learning to get my technique so I could be more consistent. It's not like, hey, stokey, I gotta get my technique better so I can add 10 miles an hour to my forehand. That is not. That is not the adjustment you're making. It's like, hey, I can actually hit it as fast as this four or five. I just miss it after my third ball. They miss it after their fifth. So can we? So can we improve my stroke so I can now make it five times? I have people coming up. I got to add like a thousand RPMs to my forehand and what I always say.

Speaker 2

I actually did this like my favorite guy that I coach remotely. He was in town one time and I said, okay, here's the rule. I'll just hit slower than you on every shot that you hit to me. So you hit a ball to me. I have to hit it back slower.

Speaker 2

What do you think the score is going to be Well, it's going to be O and O and I'll probably never lose. A point is what I said, which is like super arrogant, but whatever. But my mindset was like hey, I'm going to prove to you that it's not about the quality of the ball. The difference is is you know that I'm literally never going to miss. So how are you going to beat me? Yeah, it's going to be impossible, right? So my technique is good enough at that four or five level to hit slow and never miss. That's why my strokes will add up. But no one would watch me and go wow, he hits so fast, Wow, he hits so deep. They just go the guy. The guy's technique is good enough where he will never miss. Now, that would end up breaking down if I was playing pros. Yeah, Now I do need to get my strokes better. So you said it right, it's working on that consistency with your stroke.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I think to borrow another phrase from Craig, uh, he says how you hit the ball matters and where you hit it matters more, and I think that's just a hundred percent true. So, like, if you are a, a four player, um, um, the the best way, I think, to measure this is like figure out what shots you do need to work on and then set up those targets. Hit 100 of them. How many times do you hit the target out of 100? That's your baseline number and like, in a month from now, if you hit 50 out of 100, in a month from now, if you are hitting 65 out of 100, then you've just improved. Like that's it. It's that simple. So it's like, whether it's serve targets, return targets, forehand volley, whatever it is, if you can set up those targets and these need to be probably big targets generally, right. So we're aiming, maybe, for the back box to the ad court and we just want to aim for that square, like that half of the, the no man's land rectangle.

Maximizing Tennis Education Platforms

Speaker 2

Well, what's one of the most important things with tennis right Is having confidence. And if you have true confidence, it's because you have a mountain of evidence that supports you are who you think you are. So I have been in the middle of the court playing doubles for 25 years. I know this works for me. It's worked a million, it's just worked all the time. So I know this is what I need to be doing and I've made hundreds of thousands of volleys in practice and matches. So I feel comfortable on a match point sticking my nose out there. Now, if you don't have that mountain of evidence and you don't put yourself in these positions, then you're not going to have confidence to do these things Right. So, like you just said, if you can go out and hit that target 65 times, I have some evidence now that I have the shot. Instead of just going, I think I just kind of want to try it at 40. I'm like, of course you're going to have some tension, Of course you're going to miss that ball.

Speaker 1

Yeah, so we could go on and on, I know, but let's hop off here. Any final thoughts or requests of the audience or tips.

Speaker 2

you want to leave people with Video your matches, chart things. It's objective data. Go watch yourself. Chart the Stokoe 6. And again, just the baseline idea that points are lost, not won. And if I can just learn how to stop losing so many, I can just lose a little bit less. That is where I make my first big jump. And then once you say, like you, when you've maxed out on your tactics and whatever, now let's go get our shots a little better and we can squeeze another point or two out of my game, but that's where I would go Video your stuff. Stokoe6, points are lost, not won.

Speaker 1

Mm-hmm, 100%. So for people who want to follow you, you're on Instagram StokoeTennis, is that right?

Speaker 2

StokoeTennis, my last name, tennis, no space super original name. I've got the same name on YouTube. I just started doing that. I actually really enjoy the YouTube too, because I can do like a six, six minute lesson instead of like a 25 second sprint to get your attention. Um, I got a newsletter, uh, based on intelligence, it's on substack, and then, obviously, my podcast based on intelligence cool.

Speaker 1

All right, everybody check all that out. I'll link to it all in the show notes as well, and thank you all for listening.