Doubles Only Tennis Podcast

Bob Bryan Interview: Doubles Rule Changes, USA Captain, & The Huckleberry Play

• Will Boucek • Episode 201

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0:00 | 30:18

Bob Bryan is a 23-time doubles grand slam champion (16 men's, 7 mixed), and Captain of the US Olympic and Davis Cup team. Bob and his brother, Mike, known as the Bryan Bros, are widely regarded as the greatest doubles team of all time.

In this conversation with Bob, you'll hear us discuss potential rule changes that could help doubles, how he's transitioned from player to coach, his experience captaining at the Olympics where his US doubles teams beat Rafael Nadal, Carlos Alcaraz, Andy Murray, and won Silver and Bronze Medals, and more.

Bob also shares how the game has changed over the last 20+ years and how he would train differently if starting his doubles career tomorrow. At the end, he shares one of his and Mike's favorite doubles strategies that club-level players should absolutely use.

I hope to have Bob (and Mike) on more in the future as the show continues to grow and we try to help grow doubles. They've done more for doubles than anyone and it's inspiring to see them continue to be involved in our sport.

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Making Doubles Tennis More Popular

Speaker 1

You're about to hear my conversation with Bob Bryan. This is a fantastic way to kick off the 200s. This is episode 201. Thanks to everyone for joining and submitting questions last week. But this conversation is a little bit different.

Speaker 1

So Bob Bryan obviously needs no introduction, but I wanted to give you all a sense of how awesome he and his brother were as a doubles team. So 16 Grand Slam titles that's only men's doubles. He also had seven in mixed In 2005 to 2006,. He made seven consecutive Grand Slam finals. Just let that sink in and think about how difficult it is to make one Grand Slam final. He made seven in a row. He made 30 total Grand Slam finals and men's doubles. He won Olympic gold. He won Davis Cup 439 weeks at number one. So that's over eight years at number one in the world. If you are a pro player for eight years, that's a pretty solid career. To be number one in the world. If you are a pro player for eight years, that's a pretty solid career. To be number one in the world for eight years is just mind-blowing.

Speaker 1

So I could go on and on about this, but let me introduce kind of the conversation and some of the things we talked about. So we start out with how to make doubles more popular. It's something I usually end with, but with Bob, I wanted to start with it, since he is probably one of the most qualified people in the world to answer this question. He talks a little bit about rule changes, a little bit about the history of trying to help doubles grow and where he sees opportunities to improve things in the future. We also briefly touch on mixed doubles, and then after that we talk about his role as the captain for USA at the Olympics as well as Davis Cup, which they'll be in the finals here in several weeks in Spain.

Speaker 1

After that we discuss how the game has changed since he turned pro. I ask him specifically if he was going to turn pro tomorrow, what would he focus on versus what he did focus on back in 1998. And then at the end I ask him about a tactic or a specific strategy that he and Mike used when they were playing to have so much success. And he shares one of his tactics with us. So hopefully we'll do a round two at some point, maybe get Mike on a little bit later on down the road. But this is a really fun conversation, a really great start to hopefully one of many here on the Doubles Only podcast with Doubles GOAT, Bob Bryan. So, without further delay, enjoy this conversation with Bob Bryan. Hey, everyone, Welcome to the show. Today we have Bob Bryan on, Bob welcome, Good to be here.

Speaker 2

Will Nice to see you, buddy.

Speaker 1

You too. This has been a podcast episode that I've been looking forward to for a long time. I know you probably are pretty new to the podcast, but I've been wanting forward to for a long time. I know you probably are pretty new to the podcast, but I've been wanting to have you and hopefully Mike at some point on as well. And with the podcast, there's two different things I'm doing on a consistent basis for the audience. One is helping train them to become better doubles players, and then the other is to help make professional doubles more popular by interviewing pro players and coaches and telling their stories, and one of the questions I always end with that I'm going to start with today is how can we make doubles more popular? So I wanted to start with that with you.

Speaker 2

Well, yeah, that's a. That's a question we've been asking ourselves for a long time. You know we all love doubles. We know it's played at the club level, you know, by 95% of the people and, um, you know my wife plays it. There's leagues all over. You know the world that that love doubles. So how do we get doubles more popular at the pro level?

Speaker 2

Um, I think a lot of it comes down to TV. You know those decisions are made by the executives. You know they want to see the stars, and whether it's Serena Williams brushing her teeth, uh, people want to see that. They don't care what it is. It's just that star power. Um, the only way to create stars is really to get them out to the masses. That's through television. Um, the only way to create stars is really to get them out to the masses. That's through television. Um, it doesn't look like we're making any traction in those in those roads.

Speaker 2

So, um, you know, in 2005, we had, like, there was that lawsuit we created a bill of rights which was, you know, have the doubles draws on site, have scheduling four matches at least a week on center court. You know, we put our names on our shirts. I thought that was big. You know people started to recognize the different teams, the tandems. I wish players would stay together more. You know there's a lot of players switching around you. I wish players from the same country would play together more so you would see that consistency of the Davis Cup teams, the Olympic teams playing together during the tour matches. I mean, we've really gone over it a lot. As long as the players keep playing with their passion, enthusiasm I think that's why people enjoy watching us is because they knew that we loved what we were doing. They could see that we were having fun on the court.

Speaker 2

But maybe there needs to be a rule change. There needs to be like a little. The sport needs to evolve a little bit. A lot of other sports have evolved with the times, with the technology. Brackets have become more powerful, um, and then now there's the eye formation. Um, the game's gone almost exclusively eye and guys are very close to the net, makes it tougher on the returner but also shortens the points. Um, it's probably less beautiful for the fans, you know, um, there is no ad scoring in the tour level. It makes for some exciting matches, more fast-paced matches, and I know the atps shortening the shot clock, letting fans come in and out. I love all those, those changes, but, um, maybe there needs to be some sort of kitchen. Maybe start behind the service line until the service hit for the net man.

Speaker 1

I think a lot of people just got upset, Bob.

Speaker 2

No, I know I'm not a huge pickleball guy, look.

Speaker 2

But pickleball has gotten really popular because of this kitchen, because of the long rallies, um, it just becomes a little more fun, a little more action and, um, maybe maybe you do something like that for tennis. You keep the guy off off the net a little bit and, you know, make the return a little easier to find. Find the There'll be more first volleys. You'll bring that first volley back into play. You know you had all those beautiful players from the eighties and the nineties, the Woody's, that had incredible first volleys and that's a lot of what doubles was about. You know the touch right now it's a little bit of a power game and it's hard for the club player and the people on site to really relate to that because that's not the way they're playing it. So, yeah, that's. Maybe you go to one serve. I know in that UTS Moratagalus they have one serve and that makes for some crazy points serve and that makes for some crazy points, um, so I mean, the crazier the points, the more uh, you'll have those reels and you'll hit instagram. Stuff will go viral and maybe it'll popularize doubles a little more. So just a few ideas.

Speaker 2

I mean, look, wimbledon slowed down the grass because the singles points, you know, were becoming too short and they, they, even at times they would crack the the balls two weeks before the tournament. So the balls were a little softer and slowed down. Tennis, um, it became a little more about baseline at Wimbledon and you know the points have gotten a little better. You can't, you can't deny that. Um, I know people like the variety of tennis. They like having the rafter play against the Agassi, and so did I, but points have become longer on the grass courts and I think fans are eating that up.

Evolving Perspectives on Tennis Formats

Speaker 1

Yeah, this is. It's something, like I said. I ask pretty much every guest on the podcast maybe close to 100 guests at this point and I do for me, like I do think it's really about star power. And I was listening to to Andy on his one of his US Open recaps the other day on served, and he's got a very different look on doubles than I do, and I think one of the things that he talked about was when singles players play doubles, there's always a crowd, but I don't think it's because they're singles players, I think it's because they're tennis stars, right? So I think I think they need the tours. If they can do a better job of marketing the doubles players not necessarily the the doubles product, but if people can start to get to know the doubles players, then there will be tennis stars on the doubles tour and then people will want to follow I agree with that.

Speaker 2

You know you, uh, I know, when this doubles revolution, uh marketing campaign came out about 20 years ago. There's a lot of materials. There was autograph cards, there was posters of the doubles teams, there was water bottles with the doubles players' faces on them. Yeah, they did a really good job of putting the doubles teams in the programs and trying to popularize the players. Tell their stories a little more. Atp's doing an okay job. I think they could do a better job. You know, um, telling telling the stories, uh.

Speaker 2

But you're right, like, just because it's a singles team on the court doesn't mean there's going to be a big crowd, doesn't mean that people want to go watch. There are singles players that are mega stars that you know that people are going to show up. It's if Federer is out there. You know that people are going to show up. It's if Federer is out there, you know he's going to pack a stadium, whether it's singles or doubles. You know you put Alcaraz center. All these guys are going to sell it out and and I know tournament directors want them. You know in the in the doubles draws, you know they, they know they're going to fill more stadiums, but you know, if it's a guy 40 in the world or if it's Baez in Indian Wells, I'm not sure he's going to put more butts in the seats than Jamie Murray. There's no guarantees. There's the guys that sell tickets.

Speaker 2

But I do like these singles-doubles matchups. I know Madrid tested that out. I do like these singles doubles matchups. I know Madrid tested that out and I thought that was interesting. You know, to have doubles teams seated all the way down the top eight or 16. I forgot what they did, but they created these singles doubles matchups which were pleasing to the eye guys on the baseline, guys at net.

Speaker 2

You know, guys with incredibly strong ground strokes versus guys with incredibly quick hands. So I don't mind. I don't mind those, those tweaks.

Speaker 1

What about mixed doubles? Where does that fit into all this? For you Because you talked about how the game's gotten so fast, and for me that's mostly the men's side, right Like when I talk to club level players, I say, if you want to learn how to play the club level, watch the WTA doubles, because there's a few more kind of lobs during the rally and there's a few more, a lot more regular formation on the WTA side. But what about mixed? Where does that fit?

Speaker 2

in for you. Well, you know, mixed is an opportunity to win a grand slam. That was always my my view of it. You know, I didn't want to take away from what I was doing on the doubles court with Mike, but look, it's a, it's a chance to make a good check and it's a chance to win a slam. It's not going to put you in the magazines or on the front page of the paper, but, um, I had some amazing mixed moments and you know, if you get through those first few rounds, you're in the semifinals and you have a good look at the finish line and and you had a good look of playing, playing on center court and playing for a trophy and being on TV.

Speaker 2

And you know just uh good feelings and a lot of these guys that, that when these mixed slams are winning the first slam in their country's history, um, they go home to a huge reception back home and the grand slams, a grand slam, Um, so that that's my view. I mean the wta. Yeah, it's played a little bit uh different way, but the rallies are. Rallies are nice, nice to watch and, um, the points are longer. You know women's volleyball. I remember going to to matches at stanford we had this famous player, carrie walsh, who won a few gold medals in beach later in her career, but she played at.

Navigating the Transition to Coaching

Speaker 2

Stanford. We knew her and the women's team would play at Naples Pavilion, you know, which exceeded 15,000. And and it's because those rallies are long, we go to watch the men's team and they play at Burnham Pavilion and there's only 200 people there. So the women's volleyball I don't know whether they were wearing those short little shorts, which is pretty sexy. That probably had something to do with it, but also there's something about it being a little more pleasing to the eye, the long rallies. So I would like to see that come back a little bit into men's doubles.

Speaker 1

So I want to move on to Olympics and Davis Cup. I want to ask about kind of your transition from being a player to kind of a coach slash captain role. But before I get to that, I actually want to ask about a specific moment from the Olympics. I asked Austin and Rajiv this a few months ago on the podcast. So you're sitting in the box and Austin and Rajiv are playing Alcaraz and Nadal on Philippe Chatrier at Roland Garros at the Olympics and they're serving for the match. Austin is and he comes out and he double faults the first point and the crowd just erupts. Yeah, share with us what's going through your head. And then also, how are you viewing kind of your role on the team during that moment? Like, what do you need to do in that moment to to kind of settle Austin and Raj?

Speaker 2

well, that was a monumental match for them, also for doubles. You know there's a lot of turmoil right now with um tournament directors and just a lot of politics going on. Doubles, um, that are. We've got a lot of doubles players a little bit scared and a little uneasy. So this I felt like this match was, uh, the crossroads moment.

Speaker 2

Um, you know, if austin and raj, two legends of the game, former number one grand slam champions, go out and get whomped um by a fairly new team, nadal and alcaraz, on on center court in the biggest doubles moment in recent history, that that wouldn't look good. And these guys, they were playing for themselves, they're playing for their country, but they're also playing for their sport. And and both guys really stepped up, I mean, my brother was doing a great job with them all week. You know I was a little bit scattered, I uh doing singles matches, watching a ton of a ton of tennis, doing a lot of warm-ups, and mike was working with him a lot mentally, but also sharpening up their games on the court. I mean our role was just to basically show that we're there. You know that we were there, rock um, that we had confidence in them and we believed in them.

Speaker 2

We really did and um, so that if they ever looked up to the, to the box, they could see that on our face. And I mean, look, we knew it wasn't going to be an easy time for austin to serve for the match against these two guys there. They've pulled the rabbit out of the hat many times on that court, both of them, you know, they've held up the trophy and they're used to having good, good things happen out there. And and austin's human, just like anyone, uh, I think a lot of people could relate to a double fault. On the first point, it's just that's, that's what humans do, you know they're, they're feeling a little bit soft in the legs and the arm feels a little loose and and he got tight.

Speaker 2

but look, that's, that's tennis. And he, he steadied himself and they finished the job. And they both were were studs out there. They kept the energy the whole time but they also kept the look in their eyes. You know, I think in doubles the energy is so key If if a team can see you have a little lapse in in belief or energy, then they'll feed on it, and Austin and Raj didn't give them anything to have after that first double fall.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it was a good Olympics for doubles in general being, you know, the finals was an all doubles like, I guess, double specialist finals. I guess the only team that did super well was the american. The other american team, tommy paul and taylor fritz and paul certainly is has potential to be a very good doubles player anyways, um, uh. Another thing I wanted to ask about is um, with olympics and davis cup, what was the most or what has been the most kind of surprising transition from player to coach captain? Is there anything that has happened so far or that has been maybe more difficult or more challenging than you expected?

Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean, I think the big thing is when you know you retire, you've had a successful tennis career. You think that coaching is going to be easy. You think that you, you know how this game works. But you know, we've played tennis since we were two years old and a lot of this stuff is baked into your subconscious. It's like breathing, the footwork, the timing, all that stuff you don't know how to verbalize and you really don't know how to teach it because it just comes instinctually at this stage.

Speaker 2

So yeah, just having to watch hundreds of matches and and really learn from the great coaches. You know I've spent time with Brad Stein and I've hung around Anacone and a lot of these great minds Saviano, berger, and just it's been fun to learn, to study it, to pick the brain. But also, you know, coaching is about the players. It's different communication for everyone that you're with and some players like to hear a lot of stuff, but it's really a different language. You got to use different timing. Sometimes less is more.

The Evolution of Doubles Tennis

Speaker 2

You know, great coach, there could be a great coach that overcoaches and then the player shuts down. So I really see that when I'm around these guys is, you know, they'll hold, they'll bite their tongue and then they'll, you know, say one little thing, maybe in a practice that will be just a gold, a gold nugget, a practice that will be just a gold, a gold nugget. Um, but a lot of the, a lot of the stuff is done also between the ears and, you know, just instilling confidence in the guys and making sure that, uh, you know you're behind them and you're always going to be there and uh, it's, it's a really, it's a fun. It's different, it's it's a different kind of stress, but I'm enjoying it. But there's a ton to learn. It's not, like I said, you don't just come off the tour and know it all just because you had a good career.

Speaker 1

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, there's a story that came to mind for me from last year. I was working with this D1 program and we were working with the girls' doubles teams with this D1 program and we were working with the girls doubles teams and we were running through this drill and this girl kept trying to hit her volleys really hard. But it was a situation where they were all four up so you want to kind of soften it a little bit so that it drops to their feet and I kept trying to explain it to her and I explained it once. We went and did the drill. She didn't get it. I explained it a different way. We went and did the drill again, she didn't get it. And then the third time, I explained it a slightly different way and then all of a sudden she got it and she was the best player on the court.

Speaker 1

And it's really interesting. It's one of the most fun parts of coaching obviously at a different level than you, but for me is is trying to kind of find that language that resonates with each player on the court, and it's certainly a challenge. Um, transitioning from from player to coach. Um, how has you talked earlier about how the games changed a little bit? So I'm interested to hear, like, since you turned pro, which, uh, I believe I read was 98. Um, talk a little bit about how the game has changed. And then specifically, let's say, if we rolled back the clock but it was still 2024, let's say you're going to turn pro tomorrow, what would you focus on for doubles success today versus what you focused on back in 98?

Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean I think we've all seen the evolution of doubles. You know, from Mack Fleming. You know, into the Woody's, uh, you know into the, the era of baseline tennis, you know you have half of the guys serving and staying back, the technology returns have gotten rough. Um, there's a lot of spin On the ball. Now there's that I formation which players are going to. Um, I used a lot of spin on the ball. Now there's that eye formation which players are going to.

Speaker 2

I used a lot of body serves in my career. You know, I felt like that was a really great way to get a ball that kind of trickle across the middle. You know, hit a great body serve in the left hip and then Mike can get kind of in the middle and do some damage. I feel like guys are now serving for the spots. You know Rajiv and Austin are now going for the corners. You know they're. They're dropping their first serve percentage a little bit, but they're going for the free. You know they're. They're dropping their first serve percentage a little bit, but they're going for the free point. Um, maybe, maybe that's because, yeah, if the ball hits the middles of the strings of a singles player, that thing's going to be, uh, really hard to dig out. So they're taking a chance. Um, yeah, I mean, look and, and the scouting and the analytics have become crazy. You know, will, you've done a lot of scouting for, for the olympics and davis cup, and you know what goes into that, but I don't feel like there's any surprises right now. Guys are going out there with a very clear game plan. Um, if you're not a complete player and if you have holes in your underwear, like we like to say, then they're going to get exposed. Um, so you know, look, if I, if I was coming out today, or if I was coaching a kid that was going to try to make it on the tour and doubles, I would just say, hey, let's.

Speaker 2

You got to be complete, you know. We got to work on the volleys. We got to work on every aspect of the game. You got to be able to hit ground strokes with thinner. You can't, you know, be scared to be in a baseline rally with one of these top singles guys. You know you can't just come in on nothing. You got to be able to hang there, wait for the opportunity. Um, but you also got to be able to have quick hands and, you know, be a great athlete. You know that the training now, um used, maybe maybe in the 90s there was little guys that were a little bit slower, uh, you know, not as quick. Uh, I feel like all that gets exposed now. You know the chip lobs. You have to be very explosive, you have to have a trainer, you have to travel with a physio and do all the right things or you're not going to have a job.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So next I want to ask you about I want you to kind of share, I guess, a secret with the audience If there's anything that comes to mind, any like specific strategies or plays or tactics that you and Mike used to run on tour that just worked over and over again, that nobody maybe knew about or nobody picked up on at the time.

Speaker 2

I mean, we always had a very clear outlook on who we were going to attack. We called it the Huckleberry. I don't know if you've ever heard us talk about this, but if Leander Peas and his partner at the net were not hitting it to Le, uh, we're going to his partner. Um, maybe, if they're on the baseline, uh, maybe we're going at Leander. But we had a clear guy that we wanted to attack at net and we had a clear guy that we wanted to attack on the baseline. This kept things very, very simple for us, um, and it also helped us look like we are reflex gods at times, because I was only looking at one guy. If Mike was setting up for a second ball, I knew where Mike was going to hit it.

Speaker 2

Um, yeah, I feel like that's something that sometimes gets overlooked. Is, is who? Who are we going to attack? And, and maybe it's just one volley, I know, uh, there's a guy, david Rickle. He didn't have a forehand volley, he only had backend volley and he would hit it from way on the other side of his body. So if you could get it over to the forehand volley, you're in good shape and uh, but yeah, I mean, everyone kind of knows how we played, you know, or I think our biggest weapons were the fact that we weren't going to give up on each other.

Speaker 2

You know we were, we were in it for the long run and we were never really nervous about having a bad match because Mike wasn't going to go looking for greener pastures. That that gave us a freedom to really take risk. That gave us a freedom to really take risk and I think the fact that we were open to communication after these matches and we would not kind of fracture and go to opposite sides of the locker room after a tough match, we would stay together, wouldn't go talk behind each other's backs. Yeah, we had some rough communication at times, as you know, but we were able to air it out and and really move forward. So it didn't linger, week after week after week.

Speaker 1

So yeah, that that reminds me of. I spoke with murphy jensen earlier this year and he talked about how he was in a rough stretch with luke before they won rolling garros and they they had lost like several first rounds in a row. And murphy said he had a conversation with luke and luke was like I'm not finding a new partner. And then they went on to win like a few lead-up tournaments to rolling garros and then win the, the french open, um, and it seemed to like release some tension for him and some like nervousness for him, um. So that nervousness for him, so that kind of commitment. I feel like it's hard for me because I'm more of a math guy, so it's not measurable, but it's very underrated, you know.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I think that probably helped Murphy a lot Because you know Luke had a good singles career. Luke was very talented, murphy as well, great serve and return. But you could tell Murphy was a little more insecure. Luke saying that to him probably opened Murphy's game up to really go for it. In those big moments at the French they saved match points. They were under an extreme amount of pressure at times in those matches and they came up with the goods Awesome.

Speaker 1

Bob I Awesome Bob. I know you got to run so we will hop off here. Thanks a ton for coming on. Hopefully we can do it again at some point down the road.

Speaker 2

Yeah, thank you Will, and thanks for all the help with with. You know the U S team and we appreciate it.

Speaker 1

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks everyone for listening. I'll link to