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Doubles Only Tennis Podcast
The only tennis podcast with a focus on doubles. We believe doubles should be more popular and get more coverage than it does, so we’re fixing that. Our goal is to help you become a better player with pro doubles tips and expert strategy. We interview ATP & WTA tour doubles players and top tennis coaches to help you improve your game.
Doubles Only Tennis Podcast
#2 Episode of 2024 (Rebroadcast): Tony Huber on Improving from 3.0 to 4.0 & Club Level Doubles Myths
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To celebrate the new year, I'm re-releasing the three most popular episodes of 2024. This is #2...
Tony Huber is the former coach of multiple doubles world #1 players including Liezel Huber, Martina Navratilova, Cara Black, Lisa Raymond, Ai Sugiyama, Latisha Chan, and Sonia Mirza. Today he coaches adult club-level players and I absolutely love his approach to the game.
This is one of those conversations that you'll want to listen to multiple times. I believe it will change the way you practice and play. We cover:
- Tony's favorite doubles drills to help adult players better understand how points are won and lost in doubles.
- The one error you must avoid to improve.
- How to level up from 3.0/3.5 to 4.0/4.5.
- What most player get wrong about how they win or lose.
- The 3rd String Theory (this will help your volleys a ton!)
- The most important shots in doubles.
- How to captain a winning USTA team
- and more...
I expect this to be one of our most popular episodes and will have Tony on again.
Mentioned in this interview:
- Baseline Vision Camera
- The Bolt Tennis Racquet
- Australian Open & Cincinnati Open
- Pressure Tennis by Paul Wardlaw
- Freakonomics by Steven D. Levitt
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Doubles Tennis Strategy With Tony Huber
Speaker 1Hello everyone and Happy New Year . Today you're going to hear the second most downloaded episode from 2024 . But before we get to that , a quick announcement on the webinar this month . So the January member-only webinar is going to be on Tuesday , january 28th . We're doing it a bit later in the month because I will be in Australia for the two weeks prior at the Australian Open , so I want to make sure that I'm back home , I have a good internet connection and have time to put together all the content for the webinar .
Speaker 1This month we're going to cover regular formation . So the regular serve formation is the most common formation that you'll see in club level doubles . So I want to make sure you understand all of the tactics that you can use out of regular formation how to work together with your partner as a team to hold serve more often , what you should be looking for in the deuce court versus the ad court , first serve or second serve , and a lot more . So we're going to really take a deep dive into the regular formation for the serve team on this webinar . If you're not a member and you do want to attend , you can check out the show notes , where I've got a link to our membership page and you can sign up there and learn more about that . The feedback so far on the webinars has been really really good . Just that alone , I've been told , is worth the low cost of the membership , but you also get access to premium video content , exclusive discounts on different tennis gear , including gear from Tennis Warehouse and a lot more , and then also access to the eBooks and the courses that I've created over the years as well , so you get a lot of great doubles strategy with the membership . So check that out .
Speaker 1In the show notes , this episode is again an interview from 2024 , the second most downloaded episode . It's with Tony Huber . He has coached multiple world number ones , which you'll hear about in a second , and I first met Tony this year actually it was in New York at in a second . And I first met Tony this year actually it was in New York at the US Open , and it's one of the reasons that I try to go to so many of these pro level tournaments . Obviously , I love watching the doubles , but even maybe arguably more than that . I love meeting people in the tennis industry and I learn so much from these people , and Craig O'Shaughnessy introduced me to Tony . We chatted for a while , and then a few days later we went and grabbed a dinner and I just could tell he was a wealth of doubles knowledge and I knew I had to have him on the podcast and I'm sure we'll do another episode at some point in 2025 as well . He is obviously one of the best doubles coaches in the world and now coaches club level players , which is really exciting . So this was a super popular episode . If you listened to it , I highly recommend you listen to it again . If you didn't listen , then this is absolutely must listen content for doubles players . You're gonna learn so much in this episode . So , without further delay , enjoy the second most popular episode from 2024 with Tony Huber .
Speaker 1Every now and then , I meet someone or have a conversation with somebody that really changes the way I think about the game of doubles and improving on the tennis court in general , and in New York I met Tony Huber and had actually a few of these conversations , and I wish I'd been able to record them , but I wasn't able to , so instead I decided to have him on the podcast and talk about some of the things that we had discussed . So , if you're an adult club level tennis player or even a pro tennis player . I feel like this conversation is going to help you a ton and change the way you see the doubles court . So Tony Huber is the former coach of world number one Liesl Huber . He also coached other world number ones as well in doubles multiple Grand Slam titles and today he is the tennis director at Roosevelt Island Racquet Club in New York and he works with club level players . And I love being able to talk to people like this who have worked with players at every single level of the game , because they really understand the differences between the pro and the club level player , as well as the similarities , and Tony does a really , really good job of articulating what those misconceptions are and then how to get the right mindset so that we understand what actually leads to winning doubles points . So in this conversation he shares his story .
Speaker 1We go over a bunch of different drills that he does with his club level teams to help them buy into some of these ideas on tennis is a game of errors or the first four shots are most important different things like that . We also go over a theory called the third string theory that will help you with your angles on your volleys . We talk about improving from 3035 to 4045 , what the difference is between a performer and then a tennis player , and why you need both to improve your tennis game . We talk a lot about depth and why that's important , but why you can't focus on it too much because it can create too many errors in your game . Tony has a very mathematical approach , but it's also a very kind of human approach as well . He takes all the data that a lot of others that I've mentioned in the past , like Craig O'Shaughnessy , and data that I've gotten from tennis analytics , and he applies it on the court in the form of drills and different games , and he articulates that really well in this conversation .
Speaker 1So I'm hoping to have Tony on again in the future and we'll dive deeper into specific topics , but this is going to really change the way you see the court and give you very specific things to work on so that you can continue to improve your game . So I'm really excited to get your feedback on this conversation as well . I know y'all are going to learn a lot and I love hearing from you , so definitely reach back out to me if you have any follow-up questions for me or Tony . Maybe we'll do a round two and answer some of those questions , because I feel like we just scratched the tip of the iceberg with this conversation as far as tennis knowledge that Tony has . So , without further delay , enjoy this interview with Tony Huber . Hey , everyone , welcome to the show . Today we have Tony Huber on . Tony welcome .
Speaker 2Hey , thanks . Thanks for inviting me .
Speaker 1So you and I met a week or two ago in New York at the US Open . Our friend Craig O'Shaughnessy introduced us and we just started chatting about doubles . You obviously have coached multiple former number ones in the world and then also work with a lot of club level players . So as we started chatting I was immediately like I've got to have this guy on my podcast because my audience would absolutely love this material , and one of my favorite things about our conversation was how kind of fundamental and like from first principles that you understand the game of tennis and the game of doubles and are able to articulate it and teach it . So I wanted to start with the most basic question I could think of that we went over a little bit when we were talking . How are doubles matches won ?
Speaker 2Oh , it's easy . You're not trying to win , You're trying to get the other team to lose . That's the fundamental principle . It all starts with what you believe the foundation is . For me . It all starts with what you believe the foundation is . For me , the foundation isn't learning a forehand , learning a backhand , it's just understanding what the game is you're playing .
Speaker 2So , for instance , if I went to Fort Worth to go visit you and you're with your friends and you're playing a card game , let's say , and you ask me hey , Tony , do you want to join in ? I'll go . Yeah , it looks like a lot of fun , but I've never seen this game before . You're going to have to give me , at that point , at least two pieces of information . For me to join , I need to know what the rules are and then what's the objective is . Now , at some point , you might actually tell me how to hold the cards correctly . Maybe it's a game where I'm supposed to like not let people see my cards and I'm holding them backwards , but that's not going to be the first thing you teach me . The first thing you're going to teach me is , like you know what's the order that everyone does ? What are we trying to do ? We're trying to collect a certain suit of cards or something like that . And now , at least , I can play at an entry level , and that's how I look at tennis , because tennis is a game , so I need to look at . You know what is the game we're playing ? So , obviously , the objective is you have to win the point .
Speaker 2But the question is is well , how do points end ? And points typically don't end in a winner . It ends with someone making a mistake , a mistake . So instead of trying to now build my game and all my strokes and all my strategies about setting things up to hit a winning shot , it's more about well , how can I get people to miss ? Then that leads into the next question Well , how do people miss ? Well , you can miss in the net , you can miss long , you can miss wide . The question is , are they all equal , or does one happen more than the other ? And I'll tell you , at least from the data I've collected , that the net is the most overwhelming error that people make . So not only uh , what I tell the players I'm coaching , like , not only are we trying to get them to miss , we can't miss in the meantime . Before they do so , we got to make sure we get everything over the net , put the pressure on them and then see what happens with their shot . So that's kind of how I start with .
Speaker 2The base of the game is just understanding what our game is . It's a game of errors more than it's a game of winners . And then it starts to lead into some other things , such as you know , like I just said , where is the error ? It's in the net . When does this error occur in a rally , you know ? Does it happen after the 20th shot ? No , we all know that most points will end winner or error within four hits of the point , but most of the time that's going to be an error instead of a winner , and most of the time that error is going to be in the net . And so that's how I get everyone to understand the game .
Speaker 2And then now , based on what they're good at , what they're weak at , we can now kind of exploit that ideology a little bit . But the precursor for me is that tennis needs to be what I guess I would just call it's a game-centered approach . You've got to be what I guess I would just call it's a game-centered approach , Like you got to understand what the game is . Once you understand what the game is . Then you can go into a player-centered approach with what someone's weakness is , what someone's strengths are and stuff like that . But first it's amazing how we teach so much stuff and then we don't even teach them what the game is .
Speaker 1With the net errors specifically . This is something that I've , I guess my question to start so , is that data you've collected based on singles , doubles or both , Because I would imagine net errors in doubles can be a little bit more , I guess , understandable if you're trying to keep the ball low or keep the ball at a net player's feet , for example . How do you think about that , and what does the data tell us about that ?
Speaker 2Yeah , you know it's tricky because it also will depend on how the team plays . So , for instance , I'm much older than you . When I was your age and I was playing doubles , we were all taught both come in . And the number one reason why a coach would tell us to both come in is because they say , well , go look on tv , the what the best teams in the world do . And you , sure enough , you look back , there are two net rushers . Well , flip , now it I . You went to the US Open .
Speaker 2Definitely on the women's side you don't see that hardly at all .
Speaker 2It's a lot of one up , one back .
Speaker 2It's a lot of two back , and then you might come across a team that's two up , and on the men's side it is actually getting more where it's a one-up , one-back scenario where a guy's ripping forehands .
Speaker 2So the premise that you're always trying to keep it low because there's net players , yeah , I'm sure that does play into it . But , believe it or not , you just get into these cross-court rallies and then , once again , the rally's got to end somehow and it's still just going to end in an error . So what I find is is that when it comes to at least on the recreational side , um and I'm talking from four or five down , um it it kind of trends , just like singles does , because there's so much rallying from the baseline where there's not a lot of two up like instantly , so those errors still occur really quick . Think about it If it's happening within four shots , that's the serve , the return , and now it's like two ground strokes , points done somewhere , so there's sometimes not even a chance for that volleyer to even touch the ball and then that error occurred . Now , that being said , I want the net player to help cause that error , like I want them moving around .
Speaker 2I want them faking , I want them going , I want them pinching the middle . That will then maybe cause some , some stress on the baseliner to hit it in the net yeah , that makes a lot of sense .
Speaker 1Um , so I want to talk about the , the first four shots , but before I do , uh , can you just share um briefly your kind of tennis story
Evolution of a Tennis Coach
Speaker 1with us ? How did you get started in tennis and then how did you end up coaching on the pro tour to where you are now ?
Speaker 2Yeah , you know it , you know did end up coaching on tour . It was a little bit accidental . When I was very young , in 93 , I was lucky enough to get a job at the Vandermeer Tennis University in Hilton Head Island , south Carolina . Now , back in those days the only academy probably larger than them in the US was Nick Volatary , so those were the two big academies at the time . So that's kind of where I got my start . But I got my start in adult tennis there , then moved into like junior performance but you know , more of the 14 and unders , and then , you know , I kind of moved around to the different academies that Vandermeer had throughout the country and then took on a full-time job at a normal tennis club in Houston , texas where I'd work with kids and adults .
Speaker 2And it just coincidentally my girlfriend at the time , who ended up being married to for over 20 years , happened to become the number one doubles player in the world . So I worked with her for about 15 years . But in that 15 years I got to work with a lot of other singles players , other doubles players and it was probably just starting to travel with her first that . Other singles players , other doubles players , and it was probably just starting to travel with her . First that you know , I kind of would meet some other players , get to help them out , and then , the next thing you know , you're just out there and 15 , 20 years goes by and and that's it . Now she retired . We moved from Houston to New York to work for a nonprofit . She retired . We moved from Houston to New York to work for a nonprofit COVID kind of hit . My department got cut . However , the gentleman that started that nonprofit also owns some commercial clubs . So here I am still in New York at Roosevelt Island Racquet Club as the adult tennis director .
Speaker 2So you're working with mostly adult players now , just like USDA club level players . Yeah , I work everything from the 1.0s . We have a huge beginner program that does 1.0 , 1.5 , 2.0 . Once you're in the 2.5 , you've now hit low intermediate for us . So then we do 2.5 , 3.0 , clinics , 3.0 , 3.5 , 3.5 , 4.0 , 4.0 , 4.5 . I have a couple of USDA teams that I work with , but mainly my priority here is working with the adults , which has been a treat because I've never really been known as the adult guy . I've always been known as either a performance player coach or the performance juniors . So it was really interesting jumping into this field . But looking at data , it's all the same anyway . It's the same principles , points end the same way . So in that aspect , that lets me know it's not so much about someone's level , it's just something inherent in the game itself .
Speaker 1Yeah , this is so . That's something I run into a lot . I'll post a lesson on Instagram or YouTube and it's a video of a pro point and I'm talking about maybe how to pinch towards the middle instead of covering the alley when your partner is serving . Is somebody eventually comments and says well , that works at the pro level because their serves are so good , but at the club level my partner has a weak second serve , so that down the line shot is so easy . How would you think about responding to somebody like that ?
Speaker 2Yeah , so that's so in all of my classes . I have a camera and it collects data . The one I use is baseline vision and what we do is go okay , maybe that might be true , let's find out and we'll go over . Um , you know , it usually takes maybe , uh , four or five lessons to kind of see what a pattern is . Uh , so something as simple as oh , that second serve will be taken down the line all the time . Well , the reality is that's not true . They may hit it hard , but they don't hit it hard down the line . They actually hit it hard , cross court Down the line .
Speaker 2Returns is very rare . Even when you bring it up that it could be a good option , they don't do it all that often . I have like a rule on where I put the net player . I basically put them in the center of the box and then I tell them like , if they don't go up your line , take one more step to the inside of the court , get closer to the , find out how far you can go . You can do like a little fake if you want , because now you know they're reacting to your court position .
Speaker 2So the reality is just like I would with a doubles team . I would prefer them still . For the returner to try to hit down the line versus the cross court , because at the end of the day , it's still a more low percentage shot versus the cross court , because at the end of the day , it's still a more low percentage shot . Yeah so , and then we do a thing called rule of three , which is okay . If that person has beaten you into the alley three times , go guard it , sure , but until the rule of three we keep doing what we're supposed to do , right ?
Speaker 1Yeah , and I feel like to add to that it might even be like a rule of three without missing right , Like if I get beat like three times in a set , that might be a good thing , because I might have also forced like seven errors . Yeah absolutely , and they made three out of ten , you know .
Speaker 2Yeah , I always tell . When you get beat down the line with that , I always say remind them to say really good shot like compliment them .
Speaker 1You want them to keep trying to do it four shots and I actually wrote about it in my newsletter that went out yesterday . And we were talking about or you were telling me how you teach the importance of the first four shots and rally length to some of your adult teams , and you talked about a drill or not a drill , like you have them play games and you grab a ball and put it in different hoppers . Can you describe that for the audience ?
Speaker 2Yeah . So one thing I do through the games that we do is I I've got to , I got to get them to buy into what I'm saying , like I can sit here and say something's you know 70% , 20% , 10% , zero through four or five , through eight , but I got to prove it to them and I can't just flash up you know something on the internet , like I want them to see their numbers . So , basically , what we'll do , we'll do a simple game where it'll be a doubles game two players at one baseline , two players at the other baseline . I feed the ball in . As soon as I feed it in , anything goes , you can run in , stay back , but that's how we're going to start the point and usually , and we'll play to something like 15 or 21 .
Analyzing Tennis Data for Strategy
Speaker 2The first thing I will do is I'll just take a look at how the point ended and I'll make two hoppers . Every time I see a point end with a winner , I'll drop a ball in one hopper . Every time I see a ball end in an error , I'll drop it ball in one hopper . Every time I see a ball and in an error , I'll drop it in a different hopper , and then at the end I'll just bring the two hoppers up and then I'll ask them which hopper do you think is which ? Which one's the winners , which one is the errors ? And typically and sometimes I'll even just throw out a number first they don't even know what we're doing . I'll just yell out something like hey , can anyone remember the number 7030 ? And then they don't even know what I'm talking about . But I'll get someone to memorize that number and at the end I'll show the hoppers and I'll be like hmm , that 7030 was . I predicted 70% of the balls would end the points would end in errors , the other 30% winners . Then I hold up the two hoppers and , sure enough , that's what the ratio looks like . So that's the first buy-in that , oh , points do end in error . Then we'll switch it around . We'll do another round .
Speaker 2Now I have three hoppers and what I'm going to do is I'm going to put when there is an error , I'm going to put it in a corresponding hopper . Is it in the net ? Was it long or was it wide ? Once again , the ratio is this Long is usually at least double what wide is , and in the net will be either half of those , the same as those two combined or more . So that's always the ratio and we'll play , and then I'll have like one basket with like two or three balls in it . I'll have another basket with maybe 10 . And then I'll have another one with like 18 balls in it and I'll be okay .
Speaker 2Which one was wide ? Now , everyone kind of gets that one because they'll recall , yeah , it didn't seem like much was wide . I go , yeah , that was the hopper where three points ended with a wide shot . Now , which one was long ? And in the beginning , with all the new people I have , they always pick the larger basket . You know the one that had like 17 or 18 in it . And I go no , it was actually this one with 10 . This big one over here , that was the net . And then all of a sudden you see their eyes like light up , like , oh my goodness , it didn't even feel that way . And I go yeah , that's the problem when you trust your feelings , you know so . Still , at the end of the day it was in the net . And I go but here's the deal , that's normal . And then I have like thousands and thousands and thousands of points of data for the different levels and I go look , it falls right in with what I've collected for six months .
Speaker 2And they're like oh , so I'm like now . Now the third round is this Now I make the zero through four hopper , five through eight and nine plus . And remember , this is not even without serving and returning . I just feed it in . So you would think right away , points would get a little longer because there's no serving or returning involved . What's Craig's number ? 70 , 20 , 10 . Yes , what , those three hoppers look like ? 70 , 20 , 10 , like that it's , it's amazing . It's amazing and I'll , and , and then that right there , those three pieces of data how does a point end ? Where does it end ? When does it end ? That is my foundation for how to , how to teach the game and I just show them that this is their , this is their data .
Speaker 2It's not something I pulled up there . They're absolute .
Speaker 1Now I get the buy-in yeah , yeah , that makes a ton of sense . So so the last one was three hoppers , um , just to clarify for people who aren't familiar with the rally length , so it's uh , zero to four shots is the first hopper , that's 70 of the points . Five to eight shots is the second hopper . Uh , that is 20 of the points , and then 10 is the long rallies . That are nine plus . Those are the ones you see on tv . There's the highlight reels .
Speaker 2Those are the points we remember , uh , but it's not the reality of our sport and that's also the point where one side is cheering yeah , and the other side's like , oh , such a heartbreaker . And I'm like um , we played a game to 21 . The score was 21 to 19 . You're panicking about the two balls in that bucket . That is not , you know . It's like who did well in the zero through four . That's the big bucket . That's where we want to get good . And so at the end , like people , I just , I make a joke . I go look , I'm not being a , you know , some type of fuzz buster type of coach out here that says you can never miss or miss in the net . I just , please , just don't do it within the first two . Put your first two balls over the net , no matter what it takes . Then go crazy and wild with the point .
Speaker 1You will be amazed at how many points you win before you even start doing your crazy stuff . What are some of the drills we can do or that you do with your club level players to work on these first four shots . Minimize these errors , especially in the net .
Speaker 2Do you have some favorite like games or drills .
Speaker 2Yeah , they're super boring . You know , like when I worked with Liesl , who is was you know , she was the second world longest number one in doubles in women's history , only behind Martina Navratilova , and everyone wanted to see the drills we did . Oh , they must be amazing . I do the absolute most boring exercises ever . Matter of fact , I call it it's the excellence of mundanity . They're the most simplest things .
Speaker 2So I will do our practices two ways . I will start with basket feeding two across , two across the other way , side to side . Approach , shot two volleys , approach shot two volleys with an overhead , and I'll collect the data on that . The one thing we will notice is , whenever I'm doing baseline drills for a basket , players will probably put anywhere between 70 to 80% of the balls in play . As soon as I do approach and volleys and overheads , all of a sudden they get to about 85 , maybe even a little bit higher percentage in play . And that's kind of bizarre , because I'll even pull the group that I'm working with and I'll ask them where are you more comfortable playing ? And they'll say the baseline . And I go yeah , you look more comfortable at the baseline , but the reality is you actually make more shots when you come to the net . So that is one way I advocate at least one player getting to the net is by letting them know you make more balls the closer you get to the net , even if you're not as comfortable there . So I'll do some simple stuff like that . I'll do the game like I said , where I start the two at the baseline , two back , I feed it in . Sometimes I'll do a variant on it , like whoever I'm feeding the ball to at the baseline , the non-hitter has to run in so that they're learning how to use their time when the ball is not being sent to them .
Speaker 2But basically I pick really easy , simple exercises . But I do that by design because I can talk about a zillion different things and still do that exercise . I might want to work on technique , so I might just do two across and making sure everyone is rotating their hips on their forehand . We might work on finding out is it important to hit deep . Let's do two across every ball . I want you to aim seven feet or closer to the baseline . So I put some cones out there and we'll look for that and see if that is worth doing . So I really don't have a zillion exercise Now .
Speaker 2Probably the best one I do is and this actually I think makes the most sense start a practice with serving that's shot one . Add a returner . Serve hit the return , you're done . Serve hit the return , you're done . Okay , here's our third exercise Serve hit the return , server , hit the next shot . Step four serve , return , server , next shot , returner , next shot , we're done . Let's rotate . Like . I will do the most simplest things like that , because that's actually what happens in a point Most of the time . You got to get through that . So I don't have a lot of crazy cool design drills , um , because unless I don't think I can teach through it like really quickly , or I don't feel it transfers right away to a match Um I . Then I just find it something where it looks cool , but I'll tell them yeah , but this isn't going to transfer .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , I mean , it makes sense . If you want to be efficient with your practice and you want your practice to translate to winning matches , then you just replicate what leads to winning matches over and over and over . And it should be mundane . But I feel like a lot of people are always looking for this new tactic tactic or this new secret or there's new like drill or training tool or whatever , but in reality it just comes down to kind of these principles .
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean , listen , you've went to the practice courts . What do they do ? These are the best players in the world . They hit the ball up the middle , they hit the ball cross court . They hit the ball cross court the other way . Someone's at the baseline , someone's at the baseline , someone's at the net . They do some serves , they do some returns , and now if you look at the doubles teams , they do that super fast , and then the rest of the practice is playing points .
Speaker 1Yeah . And they spend so much time on serves and returns too , that's one big difference .
Speaker 2I remember Max Mirny flipping out at his coach . The drill looked really cool , but he's like this will never happen in a match . We're not doing it .
Speaker 1Uh , what advice would you have for captains listening if , if they have USTA teams um , in terms of you know practices , they put together lineups um any advice or anything you've seen work really well for USTA teams ?
Speaker 2Yeah . So basically what I do now is I try to stay out of me making the lineup . Uh , I always put that pressure on the captain . But I will tell the captain this I go .
Speaker 2There's a couple ways you can form your teams . One is put people together that have contrasting styles . You got to be careful . Like , if you have two really good net players , that can sometimes just become a 50-50 match . Either they win the match really well because just what they're doing , the other side can't handle it . However it can get flipped , that it just doesn't work and they don't have like a plan B because they just like to come to the net .
Speaker 2So I always try to tell , like our captains , like if you have someone who's maybe a little bit better at singles , better at the baseline , and someone else who's's maybe a little more crafty at the net , that's a good combo . A tall , short player is a good combo . Someone fast , maybe someone slow , is a good combo , because they can kind of make up for some deficiencies here and there . Also , if there's two net players , me and my partner just have to figure out how to beat a net player , and now we can beat both of them . But when you're dealing with a net player and a baseliner . We got to come up with two strategies at least . How are we going to beat the net player ? Plus , how are we going to beat the baseliner ? So that's usually like what I try to get our captains to do is , you know , find a steady ground stroker and someone comfortable at the net and make that the team . And another one is at the net and make that the team , and another
Building Performance in Tennis Players
Speaker 2one is .
Speaker 2You know , I've always played myself on a league team with someone that if I lost I knew I was still going to have a good time with , Because at the end of the day , I play league even though it's competitive . I play league because I want to have some fun and I don't even enjoy winning if I don't enjoy the person I'm playing with . I've had a better time losing with some people , but , man , we had a lot of fun doing it . So that also can be another approach , because not every league team is necessarily trying to get to nationals . Some are just , you know , they want to put a team together and they want to have fun . Well , that's the case . You got to put people together who kind of like each other .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's something I've told captains in the past too to like basically to decide on your goal at the beginning of the season and let the team know , right , because a lot of captains get into trouble late in the season when they're trying to only play their best lineup and maybe the players on the team don't necessarily agree with it or they hadn't played as many matches as this other person .
Speaker 1But if you make all that very clear up front and say , look , we're going to , I'm going to do everything we can to get to nationals , or , on the flip side , we're going to have fun and I'm going to play everybody equally , then nobody's as surprised at the end of the day .
Speaker 1But I like that advice on contrasting styles , cause you even see that at the pro level , right , like there's certain teams who have the same style who end up pairing together and they do they'll win two matches in a row , two and two and then they'll lose like two and three in the next match , cause it's like , based on the matchup , they , they don't have um a plan b , like you said , um . One other question I had for you about club level is uh , so let's say and you've I feel like you've answered some of this already , but I want to ask this anyways . Let's say you had three months to turn a 3-0 or 3-5 player into like a 4-0 to 4-5 player , how would you think about or what would you do in those first three months ? How would you kind of build out a game plan for them ?
Speaker 2So , first , so you know once I think you're in the 4045 , you know we have this term . We tend to use it towards juniors , but really it's you can use it with adults as well . It's like a performance player . I work with performance juniors , or you know , you hear , you hear something like that and it's like , okay , I get that . Now define what that is . So my definition is .
Speaker 2That is . So my definition is it's a performer who plays tennis . That's a performance tennis player . So we're going to define what a performer is and what a tennis side is . The performer is everything that is physical and everything that is psychological .
Speaker 2So I can go to like an equinox gym here and go watch someone train and I'll be like man . I don't know what sport that person plays , but I can tell they're good at it just by how they're training , because you can see this intensity , this passion , this focus and they're super athletic . Maybe they is there extra strong or they have some agility or balance . Or I see them drinking like a protein shake . You know , because nutrition you know . You just you can just tell I don't know what it is you do , but I'm sure you're good at it . Then you have then what is sports specific and and and all the game sports . It comes down to tactics and technique . So I guess the question is if you're trying to get someone who's a 3035 to a 4045 , that means they have to outperform everyone in their group . So I will tackle the performance side first , because I don't want to have someone who like it's like . I want to teach people tennis . I want to teach performers tennis . I don't want to teach tennis to just people , because I'll teach them all the tactics and the technique and then , when it's time to perform , it falls apart . So I have to do a lot of .
Speaker 2In a scenario like that , you know , we would have to look at the athletic side of them and figure out some assessments with them , make sure that they understand what the process is going to be and are they going to buy into it . And , you know , are they going to listen , give feedback , and then we start a training regimen that , no matter , even if we're talking about tactics or technique , it always incorporates that performer side . So , for instance , almost all practices start with mini tennis and for most people mini tennis is okay . We got to kill five to ten minutes before the real practice starts . Performers don't do that .
Speaker 2I worked with a player , aisugi Ama , from Japan . We always started with mini tennis . Within the first six minutes of mini tennis I'm cramping because she's so intense in that she would make every single shot . Every shot , even though we're in mini tennis , would rise on me and it's like you know what ? Like you have to be a real good performer from ball one to sustain that in mini tennis . So even in mini tennis , I find all these objectives and it's not so much because I need them to learn this technique when we're doing the mini tennis , but what it does is it puts their mind in a certain frame to help with the rest of the practice . So , no matter what we would be doing , I'm always thinking of the performer . Let's make them a performer . Now we'll work on the tactics and technique to help get them through whatever levels or whatever challenges they need to get through to get to the next level . So I know that wasn't really specific , but that's kind of my framework to get to the next level . So I know that wasn't really specific , but that's kind of my framework .
Speaker 2So we do a lot of things , like even in mini tennis with my teams , like what percentage of time should a player be split stepping when they're doing mini tennis ?
Speaker 2Well , I would think it would be close to 100% . So I'll ask okay , what percentage did you do ? Some of them say I didn't split step once . Oh , I split step half the time . So I don't need to teach them the technique of how to split step . They know how to do it . It just wasn't in their mindset to do it . I'm like , okay , we're going to do mini tennis again for three more minutes , let's see if we can get , let's make a deal Split steps 75% of the time . Now the next time they come to practice they're already at 75% because they remember it . Now they're at 80 . And eventually now everyone split steps almost 100% of the time , just in the mini tennis . So that wasn't a technique or a tactic , that was more where I'm tackling the mental side of them . And if they're going to split step from ball one in mini tennis , I don't usually have too many issues with them once we're doing drills and games that they forget to split step .
Speaker 1That makes sense . But what about ?
Improving Tennis Performance Through Technique
Speaker 1So when you're talking about training the performer , you gave some good examples of on court , are you looking at off court stuff too , like trying to ? I mean , for adult club players , it might be tough to get them to like go to the gym or whatever if they're not already doing it .
Speaker 2I don't know it is tough . So the cool thing is is I have measurements for different players at different ages . So , for instance , we all know that you're at some point you need to do a side shuffle . So someone may say , oh yeah , I do side shuffles and I go yeah , in the space you covered with three side shuffles , I can do it in two than you . I'm shorter than you and I eat queso and chips for dinner , so I'm not like some athletic specimen over here . So I'll go . Can you get that same distance ? But instead of three side shuffles , can you show me you can do it in two ? Now , sure enough , they do it in two .
Speaker 2Now I didn't change their technique . All I didn't change their technique . All I did was change their mindset . They got a little bit more athletic with it and they did it in two . So it can be stuff as simple as that . So I don't need them to all of a sudden go hardcore in the gym , but I do need to let them know that at different levels , players do things at different speeds and different distances . Players do things at different speeds and different distances . So , for instance , side shuffles and crossover steps and things like that . Kids , if you're talking about kids at different ages . They can get different distances with those . So it'd be helpful to know , hey , what does a nationally ranked 14 year old what's distance do they gain in one crossover ? You know , hey , what does a nationally ranked 14-year-old which distance do they gain in one crossover ? And know that measurement , and so you can then compare what your kids are doing or the adult is doing and see if we can get that same type of distance or get close to it .
Speaker 1Yeah , that's really helpful . That makes sense . What is the third string rule ? And I don't know if I'm saying that right , but I remember us talking about it oh , string three , theory , string three theory .
Speaker 2That's what it is Describe string three theory . So this is always a tip that I use in two ways . One is , and I don't even know why it works in this first one I'm telling you , and if you have someone who's kind of sometimes lost their rhythm or miss hitting a lot , I will just feed them some balls . And if you're looking at your tennis racket and you have the main strings and the cross strings , I'll say show me where the third cross string is from the top . One , two , three . I'm going to feed you a ball and I want you to try to hit it right on the third string and all of a sudden it tends to square up their racket head magically and they start to hit the ball cleaner . I don't know , maybe if I pick string five it would still work . I just use three .
Speaker 2But the main reason I use it is when it comes to hitting balls in different directions . So , for instance , the three directions you can hit a ball , you can hit it straight , cross court or inside out , and it's the relationship between your hand and that third string from the top that dictates which direction that ball goes in . So , for instance , when you strike a ball in your hand in string three . I don't know if you can see this , but if they're pretty even with each other , that ball is going straight . If string three gets ahead of the hand , it's going to go cross court , and if you get your hand ahead of string three at impact , it's going to go inside out .
Speaker 2So now there's more than one way to make those happen . You can reach further out in front , you can reorient your body . So there's a few different ways . Like I can get string three in front of my hand at impact , and some of it might have to do with how the ball is coming at me , because one easy way is just make contact further out in front . But sometimes that incoming ball doesn't allow for you to reach that far out in front to get it to cross court . But if you can make impact closer to your body , it's really easy to get string three out in front . So in in doubles . That's always important because the cross court is a huge , important shot . So I will always talk about , no matter what is sent at you . This is how we're going to get string three ahead of your hand and we'll get that ball cross court .
Speaker 1Yeah , I like that rule a lot . I'm going to start using that . I haven't been on the court coaching since we talked about it , but I'm definitely going to start using that one . And it's how you see a lot of the pro players and it's something I worked on in the doubles camp up in New York is those angle volleys . There's so many club players who practice their volleys hitting back to the baseline player over and over , and then they get out in the match and they can't figure out why they can't put away the volley , so then they think they stink at the net . But if they can do this string three rule or string three theory , then they'll be able to hit some of these angles a little bit better and obviously practicing that on a consistent basis will help . Another question I had that was a topic we discussed a bit is depth . So how do we work on depth and talk about the importance of depth in doubles ?
Speaker 2Yeah , the first one . You got to define it , and I'm not here to say what the definition is . It's just you got to be clear with who you're working with how you're going to define what depth is . It's just you got to be clear with who you're working with how you're going to define what depth is . So , for instance , you know , a lot of people would just say depth is anything past the service line . Well , if that's your definition , that's your definition . Some people will say any ball that bounces closer to the baseline than the service line is deep . Okay , that's great . The camera I use puts it seven feet or closer to the baseline as depth , and then it will take from the service line to that seven foot marker as medium , and then everything before the service line is short . So I'm currently just using those definitions because that's what my camera is providing . If I had a camera that I could manipulate it , maybe a little bit different and make it four lengths , I would do that . So right now I just deal with it that way .
Depth and Consistency in Tennis
Speaker 2We all know that depth is important and if anyone has listened to Craig's eight ways to get someone to miss , it is the diamond . It's the number one way to get someone to miss . But my data is showing you got to be careful . You're not a diamond hunter , but my data is showing you got to be careful , you're not a diamond hunter . If we're really talking about the zero through four , that means we've got to get four shots miss on ball five . Four out of five is 80% . So in my practices , our goal at the end of the day , no matter what it is , we're working . We want to leave knowing that our shots in play were between 80 and 85% , so we work with that number .
Speaker 2To start with , now I will do drills where I will set up a line of cones that are seven feet from the baseline . I'll do all my drills that I normally do and I'll ask the players , 100% of the time you need to try to get the ball into that deep zone and let's see what you do . And , sure enough , when a basket is done , they're at about anywhere between 12 to 17% of all the balls they hit landed there and I go okay , is that good ? And then I look up pro players . I go well , how often do they hit balls there ? And it's about 15 to 20% of the time . Pro players get their ball within the last seven feet . So I go oh , that's awesome , you guys are just like the pros , you're putting the same percentage in . But here's our problem you guys only put 73% of your balls in play . So in your hunt to find that you totally lost your consistency . So then I started thinking .
Speaker 2I called up one of my old friends , louis cap , at bandamere . He's a rocket scientist , guys , smart . As a tack , he said tony , make the target medium and do the same exercise . So I made the medium zone target . We went through everything the same and then I looked at the data and I go wow , this is amazing , guys , you kept your ball in 84% of the time . That's awesome . And here's the cool thing you were still 15% of your balls deep because you missed the medium target .
Speaker 1Wow .
Speaker 2So what I do is say look , I love it when your ball is deep , I love it . I just don't want you trying to do it . Just aim medium . Your skill will allow for you to mess up and still go too far with the shot , and you're still going to end up with the exact same numbers of balls in the deep zone , but your overall percentage of play is higher .
Speaker 1That's an amazing story .
Speaker 2I wouldn't have known that without this camera , by the way .
Speaker 1Yeah , I'd need to get one of these cameras . What skill level was this that you did this with ?
Speaker 2I did this with the 3035 , the 3540 , and the 4045 . It all comes out the same . It's just the speed at which it happens and the height over the net . So the depth as we kind , and the height over the net , so , um the depth , uh , as we kind of go lower down the rating they .
Speaker 2They can still do it , but they got to go higher over the net , okay , and then as I kind of climb up , because I have a net clearance like average , and when I get to the higher levels they're doing the same thing , but with just the ball going lower over the net .
Speaker 1Because they can just generate more pace . I guess .
Speaker 2Yeah , because the three defining things that make a ball go a distance would be the amount of spin , the amount of speed and then the trajectory itself . So because they have a little bit more speed , they don't need as much of the arcing trajectory or the severity of it .
Speaker 1They don't need as much of the arcing trajectory or the severity of it . I'd be curious to see this drill done with pro players , if they're also like if they have the same percentages aiming midcourt versus deep .
Speaker 2I would guess that they'd be better at the deep drill , but I don't know . I mean , maybe it would translate the same . Yeah , you know , the hard part is is like you can go back and you can chart a match and see what zones .
Speaker 2They landed in . The problem is you just don't know the intention , right , exactly . That's that's the problem . So , but I'm sure you could do this in a practice , say , okay , here's the zone , you two guys keep trying to hit into the zone , and but I'm also going to keep track of what's landing in the net , what's landing wide , what's landing long , and remember still at the end , we it , it . It defeats the purpose of going into that deep zone If we're only going to be 70% of our balls in play . You know , that's why I said it is a diamond . But just be careful . You're not a diamond hunter . There's other gems out there that you can use .
Speaker 1But just be careful , you're not a diamond hunter . There's other gems out there that you can use when you were doing this drill . Last question on this were they hitting back and forth or were you feeding and then they were trying to hit to the dot ?
Speaker 2I've done it both ways . I've done it with feeding . And then this particular camera has a game on it . It's called like the deep zone game or something like that and you just feed it in and you rally with someone and it gives you different points and for where your ball is landing , depth wise , and then the game is over and there'll be a winner , um , and someone who loses , but then it will also tell you where your percentages were in those zones . Right .
Speaker 2And um it , it , and then what ? Like ? What was in play , what wasn't in play , and it's . It's very rare that I get anyone close to 20% of their shots that they've hit landing in that deep zone , even when that is the goal .
Speaker 1Yeah , I would . I would guess the reason I asked that is because I would guess if you're like rallying with someone and you're both going for depth , that's going to be pretty hard and the errors are going to increase . But if you're feeding balls that consistently say land on the service line and they're going for depth , I would think that the player would be a little more accurate , since they're hitting off a ball that lands a little bit shorter .
Speaker 2It is . They're about 15% accurate . Okay . Yeah , that's where they are . When I do the feeding Now , what I will say is is , if you do want to go deep , I will tell them hit the back end of the medium depth , like , aim for it . Like they'll be the lines . I'll be like , aim for this line right here , like that's right where you want to put it , so that way , if you're a foot off now , you're in that zone . Easy , I just tell them don't aim for that zone .
Speaker 1Yeah , don't aim for the middle of the zone , because that's too deep .
Speaker 2And then , when you come , to the net , like you said , what ?
Speaker 2does everyone want to do with their volleys Put it back to that player in that zone and and what you were even explaining is no , hit the volley off the court . Well , that's going to be in the short in the medium zone . So I I use that medium zone a lot , but I'll use the different depth in the medium zone . Um , like volleys , I don't , I don't . I want you going for the the the deepest area of the short zone or the shortest area of the medium zone .
Speaker 2That's where I kind of want that volley to get knocked off the court the deepest area of the medium zone say that again , the deepest area of the short zone yeah , okay or the shortest area of the medium zone , like don't put this thing deep right , yeah , I .
Speaker 1I think the exception I generally tell people is on like defensive volleys , like if somebody ripped at you or if it's like below the height of the net and it's not a ball you can angle off . I'm okay usually with people going deep on that just to reset the point and force the opponent to come up with something . Good right , but the the balls that are above the height of the net , more neutral to offensive volleys .
Speaker 2If you can practice angling those off , those are going to be um then you're dealing with some very you're dealing with some very skilled people , because I , if I'm under the level of the net and you're asking me to hit the last seven feet of the court , well , I don't know , maybe I mean the back part of the medium zone .
Speaker 1How about that ? Yeah ?
Speaker 2that yeah , that's what I mean , because that , yeah , even if you , then you know it , that's still deep , we're talking , you're still sure yeah eight to nine feet from the baseline yeah , yeah , you know the problem is , when you tell people deep , they're thinking the last two or three inches okay , yeah , I need to clarify that more , I guess yeah , because I'll ask a player .
Speaker 1Hey , where were you trying to hit ?
Speaker 2it deep . I'm like okay , where deep ? And I'll tell them and , and basically it's like two inches before the baseline , I'm like goodness , like that's pretty deep .
Speaker 1Margin of error is not favorable , like I said .
Speaker 2What I want to get back to is , yeah , you do have to define it , and I'm not saying my definition needs to be the definition . But once you define things then it really does clarify . You know , when you're trying to help a player on what to do , it really does make it more clear just not deep , what is depth , what's medium , what's short , and you can chop that up any different way , and you can chop it up even more the more skillful the player is .
Speaker 1Yeah , super important . All right , Tony . So let's finish off with some rapid fire questions . I'm sure we'll do another podcast at some point , because I really enjoy chatting with you and I know this is going to be a really popular episode . I think people are going to enjoy this a lot and we can dive deeper into maybe a specific topic next time , like serve strategy or return or whatever it is . So a couple of rapid fire questions to finish off here . What is your favorite tennis racket ?
Increasing Popularity of Pro Doubles Tennis
Speaker 2So I have the old one and my new one . So my old one is a Prince racket , cts approach and probably I like that one the most because , when I reflect , when I was probably the best player , that just happened to be the racket I used . Now I'm old and there's actually one of the guys that works at our club is an engineer and he engineered this racket called a bolt racket . Is I teach and do so much feeding that normally I have the racket I hit with and then some giant version of the one I feed with because my arm just gets really tired . This particular racket has some technology in it that it's the only racket where I can use the same frame and feed all day and play without my arm being hurt . It's actually designed for people with arm injuries and it's called the bolt . So right now that's my favorite racket . I love it .
Speaker 1Okay , um can people buy it or is ?
Speaker 2it . You're going to have to Google it like sell it out of the back of his car . I don't know , but um , it's's a . I like the racket , so see if .
Speaker 1I can find it and link to something in the show notes . If I , if I do , what's your favorite tennis tournament ?
Speaker 2So my favorite tennis tournament from a slam is the happy slam , australia , and probably on a tour . I'm actually going to say Cincinnati , because I'm like a middle America type guy at heart , and if you get bored of the tennis , right across the street there's a Six Flags .
Speaker 1Awesome , it sounds fun . What's your favorite tennis book ?
Speaker 2So my favorite tennis book is I'm trying to think of the name of it , it's the coach's name you know the Wardlaw Directionals . Have you heard of those from Paul Wardlaw ? So Paul Wardlaw came up with like a singles tactical decision making thing that you make tactical decisions based off , and one in his book is called Pressure Tennis .
Speaker 1And it doesn't matter .
Speaker 2It does not matter what level I work with . Even if I'm on working with a pro player , the very first thing we go over is the ward law directionals . Not that we're going to use it the whole time , but there's going to be some key instances where I want that player to follow that tactical guideline .
Speaker 1Okay , I'll have to check that one out . I've not read that one . Do you have a favorite non-tennis book ?
Speaker 2Freakonomics . If anyone's familiar with any of those writers' books or their documentary , it really just makes you look at things through a different lens and maybe you come up with a different conclusion or a different way to tackle the problem . And when people talk to me about tennis , they understand how I'm explaining it , but they've never thought to view it the way I'm viewing it , and I probably take a lot of credit from just reading those books and their documentary of just how to look at something . And just okay , we're going to look at it through a different lens though , and come up with a completely different conclusion .
Speaker 1Yeah , I love books like that . That's definitely a good one . I've read it before and anything that kind of gets you to think a different way , I feel like is kind of the point of a lot of books I read anyways . So last question how can we make pro doubles more popular ?
Speaker 2If I knew that answer , I wouldn't be the adult director at Roosevelt Island Racquet Club . It is such a tough task , you know from a tournament like the amount of money that they spend on it , what they've tried . I mean I've even I was at a tournament in Berlin and they were giving out free ice cream If you would stay for the doubles match and everyone would leave . So I'm going to just be brutally honest . For all of the people that wish there was more doubles on TV or doubles got highlighted more , this is how it's going to start . You have to go to a tournament and literally , when there's a doubles match , don't go get a drink , sit your butt in the stands , because this is TV is not going to decide to view something until they see it . The crowd full of people Once they see oh my goodness , look at all these people watching this .
Speaker 2This must be something good that more people want to watch , then maybe it will get televised a little bit more . So part of it is all the people that I see that wish that doubles had more exposure when they have an opportunity to sit and watch it . They don't .
Speaker 2So I'm going to put some of that back on the spectators that really want to see it go more . The other one is will actually be from the player side , and I will tell you this no one has worked harder on giving themselves exposure and doubles than Mike and Bob Bryant . They took it upon themselves , they didn't wait for the ATP tour or anything like that . They did the work . So I think if the players want that exposure right now , they've got to step out of their comfort zone and do things that help bring light to their game . And I'm telling you , I think if those two things could happen , you know tennis will will at least from a viewer's spectatorship will be , you know , much more popular , because when you go to a slam and you even watch some of those early round doubles matches , those courts are are pretty full you know and and it's an exciting atmosphere .
Speaker 2the problem isn't so much the slam , it's it's now , when you go to a regular tour event , you know what is that like when you're at an ATP 250 or you know a WTA 500 or something that's not one of the big ones . When you watch doubles , it's just not well attended , but the people are there because they were watching the singles .
Speaker 1Yeah yeah , good answers . Awesome , tony . Well , this was a lot of fun . Thanks a ton for coming on . Any final requests or comments for the audience before we hop off here ?
Speaker 2No , I just you know . If you do have some questions or anything like that , you know , have them , send them your way . I'd love to answer them have some questions or anything like that . You know , send , have them , send them your way . Um , I'd love to answer them . Or you know that maybe there's a question that someone has like , oh , wow , yeah , that's pretty , let me find out , let me do some investigating on it and let's let's see .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , Definitely Email me will at the tennis tribecom If y'all have any questions and maybe we'll . If we get enough questions , we can just do another podcast and answer those . Uh , those then . So thanks again , Tony . I appreciate the time and thanks everyone for listening . I will link to everything in the show notes and I will talk to you all soon .