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Doubles Only Tennis Podcast
The only tennis podcast with a focus on doubles. We believe doubles should be more popular and get more coverage than it does, so we’re fixing that. Our goal is to help you become a better player with pro doubles tips and expert strategy. We interview ATP & WTA tour doubles players and top tennis coaches to help you improve your game.
Doubles Only Tennis Podcast
Kimberly Birrell Interview: WAGs, AO Mixed Finals, the Improvement Process, & Doubles
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Kimberly Birrell is the #76 singles player on the WTA tour and reached the finals of the Australian Open in mixed doubles a few months ago. I spoke with Kim after her round-one victory in Austin Texas at the ATX Open. We discussed her recent Australian Open performance, how she's improved her game as her career has developed, and more.
- Kim's experience playing AO mixed with doubles veteran JP Smith
- Singles vs doubles mindset, and the importance of belief and partnership trust
- Discussing goals for the future and her doubles plans
- Ideas on promoting the doubles game and discussion around the mixed changes at the US Open
At the beginning, you'll also hear from Matt, a rockstar tennis WAG. You'll learn what that is and how he manages all the responsibility, including one recent fire he put out in Austin.
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Introduction and Welcome
Speaker 1Hey y'all. I am at my hotel room in Indian Wells, california, recording this, but this episode is from last week. This is from the ATX Open in Austin. I sat down for about 30 minutes with Kimberly Beryl. Kimberly is the number 76 doubles player or singles player, I'm sorry, I'm so used to saying doubles. She's the number 76 singles player on the WTA tour. She's 175 in doubles and she made the finals of the mixed doubles tournament down at the Australian Open earlier this year.
Speaker 1So in this conversation we talk about her run in Australia. She played with JP Smith. She talks about what she learned from him. He's a doubles veteran for sure. So she talks about how he helped kind of develop her confidence and also helped her see the doubles court kind of like a doubles player a little bit better. We also talked at the very beginning of the conversation with Kimberly's tennis wag mat. He defines what a wag is if you're not familiar with that term, and he talks about his roles and responsibilities as well.
Defining the WAG Role with Matt
Speaker 1And then, after we discussed the Australian Open, we transitioned to the improvement process. Kimberly has had some injuries throughout her career but over the last year or so her ranking has steadily been climbing and she talks about how she views improvement slightly differently than she used to earlier in her career, and I think you're going to be able to take away some really good kind of mindset tips on improvement for yourself, whether you're a singles or a doubles player. And then towards the end of the conversation we talk about different goals for the year, plans for doubles for Kimberly going forward and then, of course, how to make doubles more popular, as well as the mixed doubles changes at the US Open. So this is a really fun conversation. You're going to get to know Kimberly, as well as Matt, a little bit here during this 25 or 30 minutes. So, without further delay, enjoy this interview with Kimberly Burel. Hey, everyone, welcome to the show. Today we have Kim Burrell on. Kim, welcome.
Speaker 2Thank you, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1So I want to talk about your Australian Open Mixed Doubles run. You did well in women's doubles also. But before we get to that, I actually want to talk to Matt here about what it's like to be a WAG on tour.
Speaker 2Matt, if you can first define what a WAG is For those who don't know what WAG stands for.
Speaker 1Tell us what it is and what your roles and responsibilities are as a WAG.
Speaker 3Oh boy, Well, wag I don't know if it's international, but back home it's wives and girlfriends of professional athletes, big in footy, big in the footy we don't yet have a term, I don't think, for the men traveling around with their professional female athletes. But, yeah, husbands and boyfriendsfriends. So the habs I guess, but wags is just slips off the tongue, a bit nicer. But uh, yeah, really, it's um, it's a role of putting out fires, um, taking responsibility for everything that happens, even if it's not your, uh, your fault. And yeah, it's just be a companion on tour and make sure that stuff goes as smoothly as you can possibly make it do.
Speaker 1What's a fire you've had to put out recently, oh boy.
Speaker 3Five minutes ago. Well, our hotel booking is, according to the tournament, cancelled and according to the hotel, okay. So instead of letting kim deal with talking to both parties, I'll take that one under my stride and and hopefully sort that one out so we have somewhere to stay tonight, but if not, I'll find a new hotel.
Speaker 1That'll also be my responsibility sounds like a lot of work.
Speaker 2All right, kim, let's uh I'm not that high maintenance, I swear all right, so back to you, kim uh.
Speaker 1So you played your first singles match here in austin. Um, no doubles for you this week. Talk us through, uh, what it felt like to get that win last night yeah, it felt awesome to get a win here in Austin.
Speaker 2It's been great so far. This is our first tournament of this little swing, so yeah, it feels really good to get the first win under my belt and hopefully can keep building the momentum into Indian Wells Miami. I really like the conditions at these tournaments and love my hard court, so I want to hopefully play as many matches as possible going into the clay court swings. But yeah, obviously last night I played against the defending champion so kind of felt like there wasn't too much pressure on me. She is also higher ranked so yeah, I just tried to go out and enjoy it and yeah, I'm glad that I was able to do that and play some good tennis, especially under pressure. Sorry.
Speaker 1You're good. So the Australian Open so you played all three events. You made third round of women's doubles, I believe, then finals of mixed doubles. Talk about those three weeks. What kind of went right on the double side, and what did you learn during those couple of weeks as well?
Analyzing Kim's Australian Open Performance
Speaker 2Yeah, oh, that's a tough one. Yeah, I was really grateful to have the opportunity to play in all three events. Liv and I we played the year before and played really doubles, because I don't get to play that often is just to believe in myself and back myself. I think if you let any of that little hesitation get in, and especially at the net, it can freeze you and everything happens a lot faster on the doubles court. So, yeah, we got a good start in our first-round match and I think that relaxed us both quite a bit and also great that we know each other so well. We both grew up on the gold coast and we practiced together. So I think, yeah, that synergy is really good between us and I think that is really important.
Speaker 2Um, in doubles too, and I think that extended into my mixed doubles pairing with JP. We just had so much fun and enjoyed every second being out on court and, yeah, that like shone through in the tennis. Um, and especially with JP, I felt, felt like he really believed in me and that gave me a little bit of extra belief. I felt like I got a little bit taller, somehow a little bit bigger at the net and especially in the big moments. We won a couple of really tight super diebreakers, I think, just knowing that, even if I made a mistake, if I went for it and it was the correct play, that he was going to be fine no matter what. So, yeah, it was really great, super great experience it sounds like a good doubles partner um, yeah I'm curious is there anything like strategically that you learned from him?
Speaker 1he's been playing doubles for a while.
Speaker 2Yeah, really high level I feel like he uses his lob so well and I think in women's especially for me, playing more singles than coming onto the doubles court, you can get caught and that's in the singles mentality of like staying back and getting into the cross-court rallies. And yeah, I think by the end of the week playing with him, I think I started to think more like a doubles player, like I saw the whole court, I saw some more of the openings that he was able to find, like with the lob and then, um, coming forward and yeah, it was really cool, like we sort of found our groove, like when I was able to stay back and him go forward, like he even trusted me to take some of those ones down the middle. Um, so, yeah, I think, like I said before, just just belief, like backing myself and coming forward when I know it's the right thing to do, even though I feel more comfortable at the back um I think that I still have pretty decent volleys, so um, yeah, yeah, it sounds like the belief.
Speaker 1You've used that word like three or four times and I think that's something. So a lot of people who listen to this are like club, like country club players, like we're at a country club now and um a beautiful country I think it's something that's like underrated for club level players, that they don't think about, and even a lot of like pro teams honestly like, aren't the best doubles partners to each other all the time?
Speaker 2um so allowing, like it sounds like jp, regardless of what happens on the court, like he has your back, and that's something that is so, so important, and doubles because it basically frees you up to like be yourself and play um with confidence I guess, yeah, yeah, he allowed me to be yeah myself and he allowed me to, gave me the freedom to even make mistakes sometimes, and even when I made an error, if it was maybe not the right thing, I sort of know, and then we'd have a little chat about it and he's like it's all good. Next time, if you're in this situation, maybe try this and then um, but you're doing great like compliment sandwich.
Speaker 2Yeah, that's perfect and then it's really good language like that's important yeah, and then when I made an error doing the correct thing, he was really encouraging like, yeah, that's the right, that was the right shot, great move. Next time when you're in that situation, you're gonna make it so um. And then oftentimes that'll happen again on a big point five, all in the super tiebreaker, and because of the way he spoke to me and treated me, I had enough belief to go for it and then we came up with some, yeah, amazing super tiebreaker results. So, yeah, I think that is underrated for sure.
Speaker 1So I want to shift to kind of the improvement side of the game. So I know you're focused on singles. Obviously you're at a career high or close to it right now in singles and you've been on a pretty steep kind of upward trajectory recently. What do you attribute that improvement to, especially over the last, say, year or so?
Speaker 2Probably a few things. I feel really clear on what I'm focused on, on the practice court and really intentional about each practice which has been really good, but probably the main overarching thing is just I'm enjoying it.
Speaker 2I'm enjoying improving, and when you can see what you've been working on on the practice court come through on the match court is just such a good feeling and, yeah, it makes you want to work even harder. And yeah, I think I'm much less focused on my ranking and results, and I know that's what everyone always says, and when I was injured, I heard it so many times to trust the process. Um, but I really have been doing that.
Speaker 2Um and I think I fell into a little bit of a trap, um in 2023, where I felt like I had to just keep playing, keep playing um each week and was checking my ranking nonstop, even on days I didn't have a match before and after matches. I was checking my ranking because I was really close to getting to the top hundred and I kind of went on a bit of a downward spiral because I wasn't trusting the process. So I think it was something that I needed to learn and to go through, to come out and figure out, um, what works best for me, scheduling wise too, um, because we, living in Australia, we don't get to go home that often, so you kind of feel like, if I'm on the road, I may as well keep playing, um, but now I feel really clear on what works best for me in terms of the amount of tournaments I should play in a row, when to take a break, um, and I think I'm sort of nailing that department as well.
Speaker 1so, yeah, just feeling overall very positive on and off court is there anything or anyone that like helped you shift from like looking at your ranking every day to like not worrying about that as much and focusing on that process? Or I think for a lot of players like they have to go through that to get to, to like learn, and there's just no substitute for like experience.
Speaker 2Yeah, I think that was the case for me.
The Importance of Doubles Strategy
Speaker 2I had to figure that out on my own, but I've for sure been really fortunate to have some amazing people in my corner, especially ex-players who are now coaching um, that they've also been through it and they recognized it in me and were able to have been able to give me some really sound advice. But, like you said, I think I needed to experience it. I think it happened a little bit later for me, potentially, than some other players, because I've had a few years out with injury and when I came back, I felt like I was just a little bit behind and it was really my first full year on tour when I was only 24 or 25. So, yeah, I think it was partly my first full year on tour when I was only 24, 25. So, yeah, I think it was, yeah, partly that as well. I just wanted to catch up as quickly as I could instead of just going with the flow.
Speaker 2So, yeah, some of the people that have really helped me one of the first people to recognise it was Jeff Masters. He's an ex-player, has won a lot of doubles, grand slams, um, and is a great friend of my dad's. He commentates and watched a few of my matches at the Australian Open in 2024, and that was when I was sort of hitting that bit of burnout. Um. So, yeah, it was him, and then Nicole Pr, who I'm traveling with quite a bit now. Yeah, I'm working with her, I'm absolutely loving and she's helped me really hone in on the certain areas that I need to improve. So, yeah, hugely grateful for them and to have them in my corner grateful for them and to have them in my corner.
Speaker 1Is there any advice you would give yourself, say like five or seven?
Speaker 2years ago. Oh, that's a tough one, I think um probably just not to take anything for granted. Um seven years ago I was probably just about to have my second surgery, I think Um. So yeah, it's been a bit of a rollercoaster, um, especially during that time. Um, but yeah, probably just that things are going to be all right and not to stress too much. I think it's a bit of a trait that us tennis players have, because we have to organize quite a lot of things our schedules and our teams and it's just lots of moving parts.
Speaker 1And I can't overthink.
Speaker 2Yeah, honestly, I should thank Matt more often because he also has um more extra time off work to travel with me and yeah, just helps a lot with like staying in the same routine that I would be have at home. Um so, yeah, I'm definitely like a home person and we're getting off topic to the question you asked me.
Speaker 1No, you're good.
Speaker 2Sorry, You're good, but yeah Gosh, it's really really hard. I've been given a lot of good advice over the years and I always blank when I need it the most. Yeah.
Speaker 1Well, sometimes it's like the experience thing, right, yeah, you could have given yourself the best advice in the world, maybe five, 10 years ago or when you're coming up as a junior and with the same, with a lot of like a lot of junior players today, or kids just in general, like you can give them advice but they can't learn the lesson until they experienced the thing Right and it's like they're not just going to take your advice and run with it Like they got to learn it, so you got to. So it's a tough one.
Speaker 2One thing that Jeff said to me a little while ago. A few months ago, he was like it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees, is it?
Speaker 2is that is that the correct way to say that quote? I know it sounds a bit like harsh, but I think it was more just like have no regrets and especially on the big moments on court, like just go for it. Like one match that I had which I think we started talking about this, was I had a second serve. I was returning and she hit a second serve on break point and I hit a short return. I sort of pushed the return back and that was like one of the key moments in the match where I think it could have turned in my favor and it didn't and then. So since then I've sort of just been trying to remember that moment and how it felt when I didn't do it.
Speaker 3And.
Speaker 2I don't want to feel like that again, like if I get a chance, I want to take it and even if I miss, I can sleep at night knowing that I gave it 100%.
Speaker 1Yeah, good advice. So any goals for the rest of the year and also any plans to play more doubles the rest of the year?
Speaker 2yes, definitely plans to play more doubles. It is really hard. I haven't necessarily like I focus on singles, sort of just because where my rankings at um and I'm in qualifying have been in qualifying of most of the wtas, which makes it hard if you're still playing doubles to make qualities of the following week. So now that my ranking's a little bit higher, I definitely want to play more doubles and if I'm in main draw, I'll definitely be able to do that. So, yeah, I'm really hoping to play more doubles this year and um improve. I think it can really improve your singles to um, like getting more matches, more time on on court, more serves and returns, um. There's so many benefits to doubles and also that's just like really fun um I like being in that team environment.
Speaker 2So yeah, for sure. And then singles goals. I just well, just in general, I want to stay happy and healthy and keep on this trajectory, but even when um, you know, I'm aware that things can change so quickly and I may not be on this upward trajectory for the whole year in terms of my ranking. So, yeah, just not to put too much pressure on myself and keep trusting the process awesome, uh.
Speaker 1Last question how can we make doubles more popular?
Mindset Shift: Focusing on Enjoyment
Speaker 2oh I think you're doing an amazing job like bringing more awareness to it with um. You know all of your stuff like podcast and media um. But even I had so many people say to me during the Aussie summer we watched your mixed doubles and it was so much fun. We enjoyed it much more than watching some of the singles we did that day. So I feel like like, yeah, people sometimes just don't know and don't realize how cool it is to watch. So, yeah, if I'm playing doubles, hopefully I can bring a few people over to the doves' life.
Speaker 1Yeah, bring more Aussies.
Speaker 2Yeah, Rich history of doubles. What do you think? I'd like to hear your answer.
Speaker 1I've got lots of opinions on this yeah so it's a thing of like.
Speaker 1It's like a chicken or the egg problem, right. So it needs more marketing, but the tours or tournaments are not going to put more dollars into the marketing until it proves that it can generate revenue. Yeah, but how is it supposed to generate revenue if there's, if people don't know about it, right? So, like what comes first? So there's like a combination of a lot of things that need to happen. The tours do need to invest more in marketing, do easy things like social media posts. So I was at a tournament a few weeks ago and I scrolled through their Instagram and Twitter. I had to go through 86 posts to find a doubles one, and it was from before the tournament and this was on Thursday of the tournament. So this was like through over half the tournament and there was no doubles posts. And then Twitter was like 90 something. So they basically just didn't post about doubles.
Speaker 1So, if you're following those accounts as a fan, maybe you'd rather go watch like jessica pula play singles or something. She's the star. But how are they even supposed to know that the doubles is going on? Yeah, so I think that's one side of it. I think doubles players um, some doubles players can do a better job of, like, taking it into their own hands. So, like, all these tools I'm talking about are free, like they can take their own social media profiles and, like try to I don't know get more media coverage for themselves.
Speaker 1Um, so that could help great characters there are yeah, especially like teams as well, um, so I hope more people yeah get invested there's a there's a coach I talked to in Australia who said that Netflix should have covered the doubles tour instead.
Speaker 2Yes, because the singles players.
Speaker 1That would have been so much more interesting it would have, because the singles players have these PR teams and they're, like, not allowed to say certain things and the doubles players will just go off. And then the partnership drama.
Speaker 1Yeah, like that would have been a really good reality TV show, totally so they could still do that. So there's a lot of different angles but there is a combination, like with the US mix changes, like it's going to help to have single stars in the draw to draw more eyes on doubles, but there's a balance, like they're also taking out all the doubles specialists out of the mixed draw, so that's going to be tough. So I wish there was a little bit more of a balance.
Speaker 1but yeah anyways, we'll see what happens. Awesome, kim. Well, thank you for coming on. Matt, thanks for joining us as well thanks so much for having me good luck in the next round thank you.