Doubles Only Tennis Podcast

Erin Routliffe Interview: Winning Charleston, Playing with Penko vs Gaby, & Clay Court Strategy

• Will Boucek • Episode 233

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Erin Routliffe, the #3 ranked WTA doubles player, unpacks her recent title run in Charleston with Jelena Ostapenko and shares insights about navigating the 2025 season so far.

  • How her off-season injury affected her at the start of the year and how Gaby Dabrowski supported her
  • Experience playing doubles with Ostapenko and winning in Charleston
  • Differences between playing with Ostapenko versus her regular partner Gaby Dabrowski
  • Plans for the clay court swing
  • Why she doesn't look at draws
  • Her friendship with Asia Muhammad and learning from each other's games
  • The toughest teams she & Gaby have faced
  • Thoughts about recent US Open mixed doubles format changes that disadvantage doubles specialists

Erin is one of the best players to watch if you want to learn how to play smart doubles. She possesses great net skills, movement, and strategic variety from the baseline that you should try to emulate. Follow Erin throughout the rest of the 2025 season.

Previous interviews with Erin:

Learn more about Erin & follow:

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Erin's Year So Far and Injury Challenges

Speaker 1

This is the first podcast episode in a couple of weeks. I apologize for that. I have been working hard on migrating the membership and building out the new website, so over the next month or so the podcast will continue to be a bit sporadic, so just keep that in mind and then as we get into May I will try to be a bit more consistent. But this week you're going to hear from Erin Ratliff. She's the number three doubles player on the WTA Tour. I've had her on the show several times before and she recently won the title in Charleston with Helena Ostapenko. We talk about her year so far. We talk about her partnership with Gabby Dabrowski, their plans for the clay season. We also talk about what it was like playing with Asta Pinko, who prioritizes singles a bit more but is obviously a very good doubles player, versus playing with Gabby, who is more of a doubles specialist. And then we get into some of your questions from Instagram and Twitter as well. So this is a pretty short, maybe 20, 30 minute conversation. I was outside at a Starbucks because I had an appointment to get to afterwards and I used a new microphone with a wind muff on it for the first time, but I think the audio turned out okay. So if you have any feedback on that, definitely reach out to me and let me know. But I listened to it and I think the audio turned out okay. So I wanted to get this out to all of you before the weekend. So, without further delay, enjoy this conversation with Aaron Routleff.

Speaker 1

Hey, everybody, welcome to the show. Today we have Aaron Routleff on World. Everybody, welcome to the show. Today we have Erin Routleff on world. Number three Erin, welcome back.

Speaker 2

Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1

So this is a little bit different episode today, as I'm recording outside of a Starbucks with my wind mic for the first time, so hopefully the audio works out here today. Erin, you just just won charleston with helena ostapenko. Um, it's been kind of. I would imagine if I asked you at the beginning of the year what to expect from the first like four or three months of the year, you wouldn't have guessed how it went so far. You do have a title. It was not with gabby, it was with ost to pinko. Um, you and Gabby made a deep run in Australia. Then some mixed results. Other than that, what do you make of your year so far?

Speaker 2

yeah, I think, um, yeah, I think it's always hard starting another year, um, after ending it in the most perfect way possible. Um, we do a pretty good job of like managing our expectations and just kind of, you know, focusing on the process. I think I had a pretty like uh, it was a tough injury during the offseason so I did not pick up a racket for like two months. Um, my first time hitting was, I think, the week of Auckland, which I didn't get to play, so I just started hitting first week of January and then obviously like jumped right into Aussie Open.

Speaker 1

So that was. I didn't really I don't think I knew that okay yeah, that was tough.

Speaker 2

Um, so, yeah, that was just and managing those expectations of like not having the practice because obviously I'm I'm like obviously I practice a lot, I'm a big reps person I was like really excited to get that pre-season and off-season to like get better and I didn't really get that. Obviously we all need our time off but, yeah, not ideal. Gabby was such a good team player, you know. She came to New Zealand. We trained together. We went to Aussie Open and, honestly, could have we could have. That was probably the best result we could have asked for, considering the preparation we had or lack thereof. Um, so we were happy and like um, very, you know, supportive of each other and each match, I felt like I was better, she was really helping me through it um, because she'd got done to train, like you know, normally, but we hadn't played matches and to play a slam without playing matches in like two months and a half. Obviously we had a massive year and a lot of matches together, but to to play a slam without having like at least a warm-up was it's not easy. So, yeah, was really proud of us for that.

Speaker 2

And then, um, we didn't play Abu Dhabi, which maybe was a mistake, I don't know did not get a little bit more matches, but I was still managing um that injury. So I was like we were trying to deal with that. And then, yeah, since then it's been mixed results. We've um had some tough losses, but I mean, with this scoring, I think anything could happen. I think it's it's like every obviously, every week we've played the best teams in the world and you know, let's say, we got some tough draws, um stuff like that.

Speaker 2

But I think, and then, yeah, gabby's been managing a little injury, so she's better now. So we're gonna start in stuttgart um next week, which I leave for tomorrow. So, yeah, that's uh, that's exciting because you know, with our bodies it's always hard to. So, yeah, it's hard to figure out, like why I guess. But yeah, no, we're, we're excited to get going on the clay and we've never I don't even know if you know this, but we've never played a match on clay together, like we've been playing for like almost two years and we've never played, because we started after the clan 2023 and then last year, obviously, gabby was diagnosed with breast cancer and she was out for the entire clay season.

Charleston Title with Ostapenko

Speaker 1

So we've never played on clay together yeah well, I I wouldn't have guessed zero. I knew it wasn't a ton, but I, no, I would not have guessed. This will be your first clay match together, that's yeah that's really wild yeah, kind of exciting though yeah, yeah, and then hopefully you know if y'all can both stay healthy, I mean we all know what y'all are capable of?

Speaker 1

um, so, uh, you answered my next question when to expect Gabby back? Um, let's pivot and talk about Charleston a little bit. Um, you were there last week, I think. Weren't y'all down like 5-0 or something in the first set of the first match, or?

Speaker 2

we were down. I don't know if it was 5-0, but we lost a really quick first set of our first match.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, and then you turn things around. So talk about the week and talk about playing with us to pinka yeah, um, I was really excited.

Speaker 2

I, you know, found out after miami that gabby wasn't going to be able to play, or didn't um. So then I was like kind of looking for partners and there wasn't really getting any bites I mean, it was really late. So a lot of people were set, knew I was gonna have to sign on site and so just I've known her, um, since juniors, like we've known each other, obviously played against each other a lot, and so just sent her a text and I don't think she was originally planning on playing doubles, but she thought that we could be good together. So her and her coach chatted. So, yeah, we decided to play, which was really exciting. Um, yeah, it was obviously the best possible outcome you could ask for.

Speaker 2

Our first match was a little rough, but you can kind of tell, like our opponents they played really really well. They were a really good team. Like we weren't shocked or anything, but they really gelled well together. Um, katie and, uh, tomova, volumes and Tomova, so they were good. We had to adjust a lot in that match, um, quite early and like kind of get conversations going together to try and figure out how to get us out of that match at the beginning. So I think that kind of helped us. You know, we were first match playing a 10 pointer. It's like a stressful situation.

Speaker 2

But I told Aliyah and I told her, like I was you know, I was like, oh, I'm, you know, I haven't played that many matches lately. I'm like not, clay is not my best surface yet. Um, and I said to her that like obviously she loves clay, like winning French Open, and like so I was like, oh, maybe I can like take some of your clay confidence and like use that. She's like, oh, we'll be like no pressure, all good, like we'll have fun. And that's what we tried to do, I guess, every single match. So I think you could probably see that a little bit on our faces, just like trying to enjoy it, not, and not really worry. And I really wasn't worried about results. I was just trying to, you know, prepare for Gabby and I's clay season together and just get better, like myself, and obviously support her as a partner. And yeah, it was, it was really fun. Obviously, we gelled well in the end.

Speaker 1

Is there something so you get there? You'll end up signing on site. Is there a process you go through to when you're signing up with a new partner and you all know it's only going to be for one tournament? Is there kind of a simplified kind of strategy conversation that you have, or did you all just go out there and figure it out?

Speaker 2

We know each other's games, I think, so well, because it really is crazy, actually, how many times we've played against each other with like most of mine has been with gabby, hers has been with like a bunch of different partners, um, but we always, I feel like I always play her in like semis, like deep in tournaments, when we're both like feeling ourselves and like it's always a battle, like we always. So we know what our strengths and weaknesses are. So I think we kind of knew that. Um, we talked a little bit about our opponents like walking out to the court in like a pretty relaxed way, like if she knew them more, she would say more and if I knew them more than I would say more.

Speaker 2

The first round we didn't really know them that well on a doubles court, so we just kind of threw ourselves into it and figured it out. Um, but yeah, we were definitely we're definitely keeping pretty simple, like I think we're both very like. You know, go with your gut and play if you have a feeling on like what you want to. If you want to hit a certain ball, then go for it like you have your, you have freedom to do that. So that was nice to both like, feel like we had that from each other, I think um, is there anything particular that you noticed during the tournament about playing with us?

Speaker 1

to think of that caught you by surprise um, caught me by surprise, I think.

Speaker 2

I think her kind of awareness of like tactics and stuff like that, and her awareness of herself, like when she makes a mistake or whatever it is.

Speaker 2

I think I was a little surprised by that. I think because I'm the first person to be like, hey, I messed that up, that won't happen again, like you know. You know we're moving on, and she and I would always like if I which that's just how I am I think I'll say like, oh, my bad for whatever it is, like missing that volley on deuce point or whatever it is. And she was very like oh, don't worry, I double faulted twice, like, or something like that. So I think that was very not surprising, but I thought that was kind of nice to have from a singles player. Obviously she plays doubles like a singles, like she's so good from the back and amazing serve return, all that stuff. But yeah, no, I think that surprised me a little bit and just, I honestly really didn't feel any pressure like from her, because sometimes I feel like when you're playing with, like top singles player or somebody like that, then it's I don't know, a little intimidating, but also maybe she was intimidated, I don't know.

Speaker 1

But yeah, no it jelled well. So obviously she has a very different game style than Gabby. So obviously she has a very different game style than Gabby. I feel like Gabby takes away the opponent's time with court position right by getting to the net and taking the ball early. Ostapenko takes away their time by hitting the ball 500 miles an hour. Talk about what adjustments you have to make going from Gabby to Ostapenko, if any, or did you more just focus on yourself?

Speaker 2

No, yeah, I have to adjust. They're so different. It's actually crazy how different tennis players they are. Obviously, it's very obvious when you see them play, but I feel like the biggest thing is no matter who you're playing with. When you play with someone different, it's just the speed of returns and serve as a volleyer, adjusting like your split step and, um, like how aggressive you're being really, because that I think I'm really aggressive. I'm trying to be an aggressive net player as much as I can, um, but it's different when you have someone like coming to the net and different when you have someone being aggressive from the back.

Adjusting to Different Partners

Speaker 2

So that was something like just the timing of it and like in our first set or in our first match, even I got passed down the line like so many times just because they're almost like late, because she's hitting it humongous, so they're like I would get more balls in the middle or up the net rather than like trying to make the ball come to me. Um, that was like a main thing. You know, when I'm serving, I think Gabby's more active than Aliona. So that's something like I had to adjust, like my service positions and all that stuff and like serve and bowling stuff like that, but, yeah, it came. I mean, I think the ultimate doubles player can be successful with multiple different partners and that's like what I strive to be, no matter who I'm playing with. So it was something good for me to focus on and to, yeah, to try and get better and be like the best partner that I can be, no matter who I'm playing with. So, yeah, I enjoyed it a lot.

Speaker 1

So earlier this year this was either I think it was at Indian Wells, it may have been in Australia I was talking with you between matches and I brought up the draw and you were very quick to like put your hands over your ears and shut me down and you didn't want to hear about who your next opponent was if you won, or anything like that. Why do you approach tournaments that way?

Speaker 2

I don't know. I think I started it. It I started, honestly, before playing with Gabby and I think I just was trying to take out just a. There's so many variables into what goes into tennis in our lives and I was just trying to take out a variable that could potentially affect, you know, my week, my day, my match. Um, I'd like to think I'm definitely mentally strong enough to like not let it affect me if I know who I'm gonna play next, or whatever, but I just really didn't see the positive to it. I could only see negatives coming from it. And so then I was like, okay, well, I'm done looking at it.

Mindset and Managing Variables

Speaker 2

And so now, like coaches that I'm working with, and Gabby also doesn't look at the draw, which is really convenient because we're both like that, yeah it just. It's very like we're focusing on the present moment and focusing on, you know, the process rather than the outcome, I think, and that's like the main focus for us, and I think that that just helps that happen, because obviously there's sometimes, you know, mistakes are made or somebody, or, like my sister, will accidentally like say something to me on the phone, or something like that. But yeah, it just. Yeah, it's a variable that I just didn't see as a positive. I was kind of like, okay, well, this can only really bring a negative. So I was like, okay, I'm, I'm done with it.

Speaker 1

I like that word variable, so it sounds like this is a mindset thing. Right Like this. This helps you get in the right mindset, and this variable doesn't have potential to improve your mindset, but it does have potential to, uh, make your mindset worse, so let's just take it off the table. What are some other variables that you consider that maybe you do include to help improve your mindset during a tournament?

Speaker 2

Um, improving mindset. I mean, I think on the tennis court, like not to do with mine, obviously there's like a lot of variables that matter, like time of day you play, the weather, all that stuff. I think with the mindset, it's like you know, time spent at courts, um, because it's exhausting to be at the courts all day long if you don't have a match, or stuff like that. Or just, like you know, having dinners out with friends where you're not really thinking about tennis, or you're like distracting yourself from tennis Cause I'm pretty good when I you know tennis isn't everything I need to like focus on other things, um. So, yeah, that's something I'm always thinking about. Um, I think when you have a full-time partner, time spent with that partner and like practices separately is really important. Just you're not together 24 hours a day, stuff like that, people around you, like your coaching staff and like friends you bring. That's really important. That's one that's really, really important to me. Yeah, those probably a couple examples.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it sounds like people have to kind of figure out what works best for them yeah, it's definitely unique to each individual yeah, totally um, so I was going through your uh season so far and you've had a lot of matches where you lost the first set and won the match. I think you and Gabby started with three straight matches like that down in Australia. I was curious. If so, obviously on each changeover you and Gabby are talking. Maybe Dan is chiming in with some comments on adjustments to make. Do you have a different process for making adjustments between sets than you do between games, and how do you think about making adjustments after you lose a first set?

Speaker 2

I think the between sets and games is the same for us. I think we're like just chit-chatting, no matter what. I guess it's a little bit of a longer time between sets, but that doesn't I don't feel like that changes that much. I think, and I think honestly, we try to keep it the same. Whether we win or lose the first set, we're still chatting about what's going on, unless there's like something glaring or something that like one of us feels like we need to get off our chest or just a massive feeling that we have.

Speaker 2

I think we try to keep it the same, no matter if we win or lose the set. And most of the time I think before matches we focus on what we're doing well and what we want to do, and then maybe during the match it's more about the opponents, like if something has changed, you know based on if it's changed from the notes that we had before, because a lot of the times when you're and you know we're playing everyone and everyone's bringing their best, because that's just how it is, um, and so sometimes you know they they've like changed their game from the last time they played us and we're like a little surprised by it. So we'll talk about that.

Clay Court Adaptation

Speaker 1

I say that's the main one yeah, uh, earlier you said you're not the best clay court player yet I love that you used the word. Yet how do you adjust to the new surface as we enter clay season and what do you feel like you need to improve to improve your game on clay?

Speaker 2

I think I need to. Yeah, I've definitely had my best results on hard and grass, so that's probably why I say that not that I'm not still good on clay, but it's definitely like something that I'm still you know, navigating, and I think that has a lot to do with, like, what you grow up on. Like I was talking to Aliona about it and she was like, yeah, I started on you know clay when I was whatever eight years old and I thought about the first clay tournament I ever played I think I was 15. So that that's like crazy because, like you know, growing up in Canada you don't have clay courts and that's just like not, and you probably see it in the results of you know countries that don't have clay courts.

Speaker 2

Um, but yeah, I think, what do I need to improve? I need to improve my movement, just like in the serve and volley. I think it's just like the sliding. I definitely can slide, it's just not as natural to me. So I feel like every match I play, I feel a little bit better on it. Um, and I need to, I think, improve like my kind of like my touch game, like, rather than because my go-to, I think, is power, just to like go through people and think on clay it's really hard to go through people. You've got to go a little bit around them, over them, below them, and I think that's something that I can always work on Just touch, game and chip and come in or lobs and stuff like that, which I actually feel better now, I think even than I did at the end of clay season last year, so that's kind of nice.

Speaker 1

Yeah, the end of clay season last year, so that's kind of nice, yeah. Yeah, it seems like because of the footing on clay you can, yeah, use some of that variety more and even go like behind people, right yeah serve them wide and then go back wide as they try to recover yeah, back totally people and then the drop shot and lob, like you talked about.

Friendship with Asia Muhammad

Speaker 1

Um, so in australia, and then even at indian wells, when I was there, um, I went to a few of asia muhammad's matches. She and demi won indian wells uh in the finals you were in their uh players box and in australia, I remember every time I walked by their court I would always see you in the players box as well, and I know you and, as Asia, are very good friends.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Talk about your friendship and her progress over the last year, and then also how much have you tried to kind of teach her on the double sport as well, and how much have you learned?

Speaker 2

Yeah, I think I'm honestly so grateful for that friendship on tour. It's really hard, I think, to find people that you can become really close with just because you know. There's obviously like you have friends and stuff, but there's also like competition vibe, which is kind of always there. But we we do a pretty good job of just like supporting each other, no matter what, obviously, and when we play each other. But yeah, um, it was awesome to see them.

Speaker 2

When indian wells, I was so happy that I was good that I got to be there, like I was training anyway, and I stayed, like I think, a day extra. I told, I told dan, I was like, okay, I'm gonna stay, because I was supposed to leave saturday. I was like, but the final saturday, so I'm gonna leave sunday. And he was like, okay, um, so I like found hits there, um, but yeah, I was really happy to be there because it was, I think you know it was definitely Asia's biggest title and so to be there as like one of her good friends was awesome. Um, as far as like what we learned from each other, I think it's. I think it's a lot.

Speaker 2

I mean, I watch a lot of her matches, she watches a lot of mine. We know each other, like, um, super well and so we she, you know she, actually speaking of like, the touch, the love that she's does that so well and I feel like it comes so naturally to her that that she just like messes with people, like, and she never really does it with power, except for on her serve. I think she just does it with, like, her movement and her, um, like her, the manipulation of the ball, which I think is so cool. So I definitely think, watching her, I, like you know, think of plays that I could do to try to do that to my opponents.

Toughest Opponents and Career Moments

Speaker 2

Um, and yeah, just off the tennis court obviously learned so much as just being one of my best friends. I think, um, she's an incredible person, like without tennis and all that. So, yeah, no, I'm really happy, was so happy to be able to be there for Indian Wells. It was pretty epic and Demi's awesome too. So it was nice to get to know her a little bit and, yeah, I was really really happy for them yeah, awesome, yeah, um, so a couple questions from Instagram and Twitter.

Speaker 1

One person asked who is the toughest doubles pairs for you and Gabby to play against.

Speaker 2

Oh, interesting, um, that is interesting, I guess. One that comes to mind, like kind of recently, we've only played them one time was on Dreeva and Schneider. Um, yeah, that was a we've have. We only put them once. Yeah, we've only put them once, and they just um, yeah, they, they're interesting. I think I would be excited to play them again because I would like love to see how it happened when, like, everyone's like feeling good and doing that. But, yeah, no, I think that's probably and that's recent, I don't know. I'm trying to think of another one that we've played like multiple times, I think I guess in Miami, like our, our um most recent loss was against um Wang and Zhang, like Sai Sai Um, they played really, really well and they're a team. I think I feel like they're a team that their ceiling's really high, so when they get matches together and like practice together, they could be very dangerous.

Speaker 1

What is the uh, your toughest loss and your best win? Oh, my god, I guess of your career.

Speaker 2

They didn't specify yeah, toughest loss, um, I would say first round, wimbledon 2023. I've talked about that one a little bit. Um, I don't, I was I don't remember who, I think it was Begu Kalanina wasn't really about them. It was more like we had match points and I, you know, was at the like the end of a three month long stretch where I felt like I was playing really well but wasn't getting results or anything. Um, I was playing with Alexa and we had like ended our partnership. It was just like a really hard time. But then after that, things like really changed. So that's probably because of the rollercoaster of this life Best win, I would maybe say the finals of Wta finals, when we beat um saniaka van townsend.

Speaker 2

That was just, you know, I would argue we're like the two best teams that year. Um, we played them in wimbledon, the final, and lost to them in the summer. So, like it was nice to play them again and, you know, change what we did a little bit and get the win to end the year like that. That was definitely at least top three for sure Good answer.

Doubles Strategy and Dream Partners

Speaker 1

This next one's interesting. So I've been teaching recently a lot of my students how to start running plays on serves. But these are much lower level players so we're keeping it simple to start and just going with like three to five plays. Um, this question is how many set plays do you and gabby have and how much do you think the rest of the tour uses set plays? So I know for more advanced players, y'all are not only calling serve location and formation and movement, but also like different spins on the serve and maybe right maybe other stuff that I don't even know about.

Speaker 1

So how many set plays do you feel like y'all have?

Speaker 2

maybe like it's tough because we always say we have like a set plan if we're going to do it. If it like something happens to dissolve that play, we'll just kind of play the way that we want to. I would say maybe eight to ten okay like that, we, that's like the plan, and if it goes to plan, great, everything's great.

Speaker 2

But we always have like a plan b, no matter what yeah, and this is eight to ten just serving uh, I mean god, you can do so many like with the serve it's like hard, but I would say, I would say they include. I guess, if I'm including returns like, let's go like 10 to 12 maybe okay, yeah, that's fair.

Speaker 1

Um, who is your dream doubles partner? It can be. It says uh, dead, alive or retired um, oh.

Speaker 2

I actually answered this in charles when I was doing an interview and it was um del patro, because I used to love watching him play and he was awesome and I don't know it'd be fun, so I'll go with that again good answer uh, how has your life changed since winning the big titles, the us open final, wta finals and becoming uh world number one?

Changes in Mixed Doubles Format

Speaker 2

um, yeah, a decent amount. I think it just like solidifies, you know, a schedule and like a place on tour that I would like to, you know, hopefully stay at for a while. Um, but not a crazy amount, I think, you know. I just I mean it's nice in the sense that, like Gabby and I have solidified, like our team and the people around us, so that's like been pretty life-changing to have people around almost all the time to like work on your game, um, which is something I'm so grateful to have. Um, yeah, other than that, like not a crazy amount, but yeah, a little, yeah, uh so I want to finish up with um, some of the doubles talk recently.

Speaker 1

So obviously the U S open mixed has changed Um it's. I guess it's kind of old news at this point. It was like what, six or eight weeks ago, yeah, what was your take when it first came out? And then, do you have a strong opinion on the comments from Roddick or Pelker or Wertheim and kind of the general doubles conversations that have been had recently?

Speaker 2

Yeah, I think I was a little shocked. I think that my initial reaction was I mean, I'm happy for singles rankings to be used and to do it the week before US Open, and obviously bringing money to it is amazing because it's a form of doubles. I get what they're trying to do with, like bigger names, bigger singles names, to get them into the draw, which I'm fully in support of. I think I think that what's frustrating is like I could be number one in the world and have literally not lose a single match until that, until mixed doubles happens, and I still wouldn't be able to get in, you know, so, as a doubles player, like I think that that's frustrating because, like I don't really have control over it. Um, so I'm I I support that they did it before and that they use singles ranking to get in, but I think it could be singles and doubles rankings, because then you'd have, like I don't know, probably the top five doubles players in the world if they wanted to play, and half of them are singles players anyway. So, yeah, that's what I think.

Speaker 2

I think that just like it went from like we could play, we were going to get in no matter what and it was great, and now we don't even have the opportunity unless, like, we get a wild card somehow, which is like pretty, you know, unlikely. I think. I mean I I'll try for sure, um, but yeah, no, I I think, and I mean in the us, in indian wells, I was going to say, is like the number one place where people watch doubles. And I would argue, now, charleston, they came to our matches. It was crazy the amount of fans that we had. So so it's about the community. Obviously, indian Wells is like a tennis community, same with Charleston, but, like in the U S, they really love watching doubles. I don't know about like that's the number one place. I think that that you guys love watching it. So I think for us open to do that is not going off of, like, its audience as much. Like if French Open did that, I wouldn't have been that surprised.

Speaker 2

But, yeah, US Open.

Speaker 1

Yeah, that's an interesting way to put it. Yeah, I think it'll matter. Just you know, if, like you wanted to get in, for example, if you can find the right partner, like that'll matter a lot more than how many matches you win between now and the US Open, like you're saying oh, totally, oh, yeah, yeah, if you can get like medvedev to play with you or something yeah, like yeah, then you'll probably get in.

Speaker 2

But yeah now it's about the name, less about their tennis game and like how successful they are on a doubles court, which I think is a little frustrating for people that like work hard all their life to be successful in the doubles court. So so, yeah, I mean I, I mean I get it in one hand, but yeah, it is frustrating because it's like almost out of my control. So, yeah, I'll try to make friends with some big name.

Speaker 1

ATP guys. Yeah, but I think it'll keep changing over the next few years. So yeah we will see. Aaron. Thanks a ton for coming on. We'll do it again, hopefully later this year, and good luck for the clay season.