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Doubles Only Tennis Podcast
The only tennis podcast with a focus on doubles. We believe doubles should be more popular and get more coverage than it does, so we’re fixing that. Our goal is to help you become a better player with pro doubles tips and expert strategy. We interview ATP & WTA tour doubles players and top tennis coaches to help you improve your game.
Doubles Only Tennis Podcast
Coach Craig Veal Interview: Developing Consistent Performance, Same vs Different Partners, & Doubles Strategy
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Craig Veal shares his experience coaching three top-40 WTA doubles players: Desirae Krawczyk (#14), Olivia Nicholls (#32), and Teresa Mihalikova (#34). Currently in Paris, preparing his players for the upcoming French Open, Craig and I discussed how he manages multiple players while sharing strategy insights, and more.
- Craig's coaching philosophy centers on "coaching people first, tennis second," which has led to long-term coaching relationships
- He shares one doubles tactic that is more effective on clay vs other surfaces
- His top 3 questions for club doubles players playing with new partners
- How Olivia Nicholls has improved her ranking so consistently, plus insights into her match review process
- Why right-handed players in the ad court should hit more forehands rather than relying solely on backhands
- Where Des Krawczyk's mixed doubles success comes from, including her in-match "dad jokes" 🤣
- Why ATP doubles faces different challenges than WTA doubles
This was a fun conversation that I think everyone will enjoy, whether you're a club player looking to improve or a WTA doubles fan. Watch Craig's players this year and follow him below.
Learn more about Craig & follow:
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Introduction to Coach Craig Veal
Speaker 1You're about to hear my conversation with coach Craig Veal. This is a conversation that you're really going to benefit from really anybody who listens to the podcast. So if you like to follow the pro tour, you're going to get a lot of pro tour insights. If you are a club level doubles player, you're going to learn a lot about strategy and some tactical advice, and if you're a coach, you're going to learn what it's like to coach on the WTA Tour. So Craig currently coaches three top 40 WTA doubles players Desiree Kravchik is number 14 in the world, olivia Nichols is number 32 in the world and Teresa Mihailikova, olivia's partner, is number 34 in the world.
Speaker 1And as we had this conversation, craig was in Paris and he was preparing his players to play against each other in the next round of the Paris 125K. So we talk a little bit about that. He shares his story with us. He talks about how he manages three different players on tour, especially since they're all very different. So Teresa and Olivia have played together all year, so he manages them as a team and then individually as players, and then he also works with Desiree, who's had five different partners this year. So it's a very different approach and he talks a little bit about that during this conversation.
Coaching Players Against Each Other
Speaker 1We also discuss Olivia's improvement over the last several years, what club level players can kind of take away from that improvement and what has led to that. We talk about what makes Des so good at mixed doubles. We talk about how to play with new doubles partners. We talk about clay court double strategy and a lot more. So this is a fun conversation that you're really going to learn a lot from and get to know Craig as well. So, without further delay, enjoy this conversation with Coach Craig Veal. Hey everybody, welcome to the show. Today we have Craig Veal on, craig, welcome.
Speaker 2Hey, nice to see you Will.
Speaker 1Thanks for coming on. So you're in Paris right now. You've got three players there. I want to get to the match tomorrow, which is a little bit strange. But first I wanted to ask you what is the strategy for you and Olivia and Teresa to avoid Shea and Ostapenko in the first round at Roland Garros?
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean, I'm hoping that they're going to get seeded at French Open, so by doing that, hopefully avoiding them in the first round. But yeah, that's the objective anyway, because I feel like, yeah, between Olivia and Teresa, and then also Dez think, played against Ostopenko like five, maybe even six times already this year. So, um, it's it. Yeah, it's felt pretty, pretty relentless that's so tough.
Speaker 1Um, yeah, I feel like the odds of drawing them first round three times before like the end of May is, I mean, one in a thousand maybe yeah, yeah, so wild, um and yeah Ostop.
Speaker 1Maybe I don't know, yeah, yeah, yeah, so wild. And yeah, ostopenko's I don't know, maybe the best one of the top two doubles players in the world over the last couple of years. So it's like just such a tough matchup. So you're in Paris, you've got Olivia and Teresa playing, and tomorrow they're playing against the other player. You, coach Dez, what do?
Speaker 2you do in that situation? So yeah, if anyone that I coach, if they ever play each other, the situation for that match is that I don't coach anybody, but then I kind of just have a conversation with them all about would they rather me be there and just watch the match from a distance, or is it better for me just not to be there at all? So that would just be a quick conversation to see what everyone's preference is for tomorrow. I've had it before where I've sat and watched a match and I've liked doing it that way. But I've also had matches that I've sat and watched and I've hated being sat there watching. So I kind of leave it up to them to decide what they want really.
Speaker 1Okay, have you had that conversation yet?
Speaker 2No, not yet. No, we're going for dinner in a little while. So yeah, we'll have a chat with them.
Speaker 1Okay, what do you think they're going to say for tomorrow?
Speaker 2They'll probably all say the same thing, which is don't mind. They'll all say I don't mind, I don't care.
Speaker 2Yeah, exactly, and I think think, to be honest, tomorrow I'll probably go and watch that match. Um, just because that there's some things that I want to watch out for that. Everyone's been working on different bits, so I wouldn't mind seeing it, because sometimes these 125ks, you can't get a recording of the match, so I would actually quite like to go and go and watch it okay, is it a little bit like lower stress, since it's a 125k versus maybe if they were playing each other in like the semis of a 1000 or something?
Craig's Coaching Journey
Speaker 2yeah, definitely, yeah, yeah yeah it's definitely a bit a bit lower stress, um, and yeah, it's, it feels a little bit yeah, a little bit more uh low-key, so it's a lot easier for me to go there and watch yeah, so I want to talk more about the season, but first share with us, uh, how you got started coaching on on the doubles tour um.
Speaker 2So I I first started coaching uh when I was 17 um.
Speaker 2So I first started coaching when I was 17 um, working at an academy doing all sorts of coaching you know, mini tennis, uh, beginner adults, a really wide range of different levels and ages and over the years I kind of uh was coaching quite a few good young juniors who I started coaching when they were eight or nine um, and then I just stayed with them for sort of 10 years until they got to the the end of juniors and um.
Speaker 2My transition from that was naturally kind of going into working with a few pro players, um, and actually I got started in the doubles in the in the kind of double side of things, through Erin Routliff um. So she she was coming to play qualifying at Wimbledon back in 2018 and my friend was coaching coaching her from from a distance in New Zealand and he just asked me to go and watch and give some feedback on the match. So I went there and watched her and she was playing with Alexa Garaci at the time. So I went and watched them play, took a load of notes, gave them some stats and some numbers from their match that I felt were important and they really liked the feedback, so they just asked me to to come back for a few more matches. Through that time, um, and then through that experience, uh, got to know alexa really well and alexa ended up asking me to to work with her um, and so I started working with her in 2018 okay, awesome.
Speaker 1Um, yeah, I feel like working with her in 2018 okay, awesome. Um, yeah, I feel like most of the coaches get started just through a connection like that. Would you agree with that?
Speaker 2just, like somebody you know. Yeah, I mean I was during that time when I first met them. I there was a boy that I was coaching who was playing junior wimbledon. So I was, I was in and around the grass season anyway, and then it was just that I had like an afternoon, I had an afternoon free where he wasn't playing, and I said, yeah, I'll go along and watch sort of thing, and and and. Yeah, and that was kind of how that started.
Speaker 2And the first probably six months that I was helping Alexa out, it was all remote stuff, cause you know she was ranked maybe one 20, one 10 and doubles at that time and you know the prize money that these guys are making at that level it's, it's. You know they can't afford to have a coach traveling with them, um. So so I was doing a lot of remote work with alexa and I had two or three other players that I was working with um, and then gradually her ranking kind of gradually got higher and higher and higher to the point where I was able to to go the road with her quite a lot Okay, and how'd you get started in coaching in general?
Speaker 1I assume you played tennis as a junior and just kind of fell in love with it, or yeah, I played tennis as a junior.
Speaker 2I played tennis as a junior and then when I was 16, 17, I was playing a bit, but I've always kind of liked coaching. I've always liked the idea of coaching, and I was living in London at the time. I'm not from London, but I was living there at the time at this academy where I was playing as well, and basically I decided I wanted to stay living in London and my parents said, well, if you want to stay up in London, you've got to find a way to pay for it. And that's how I got into coaching basically was to start paying myself to live in London. And then, just, I really fell in love with coaching. I love it, it's. You know, I can't imagine doing anything different, to be honest, at the moment.
Speaker 2What aspect of coaching do you love so much? I like the person aspect. I really, you know I would say that my take on it is I coach people first and then the tennis comes secondary. So I really like coaching people and a lot of the way that I work is based on that. So it's not just about, you know, forehands, backhands, tennis. It's kind of a more holistic approach to people in general and that's the big thing that I really enjoy. You know, I'm fortunate that pretty much every coaching relationship that I've had has been a very long-term relationship. Um, you know, uh, a lexer I was with for almost six years there's. I've coached on and off for almost five years. Now live's been four, three or four years. I was coaching a male player called Arthur Ferry. I was with him for 10 years. So yeah, I've always had quite long-term coach relationships and that's kind of how I like to work.
Speaker 1What does that coaching the person look like? Do you have like a kind of framework for that?
Speaker 2Yeah.
Coaching Philosophy: Person Before Player
Speaker 2I have like a framework that I work with and a lot of it's about like I'm trying to understand where they're at just in their life as well, like away from tennis. So I like to, you know, kind of dig into that a little bit and then you know the the my feeling is is that the more someone is in a better space away from the court, the more likely that they're going to be able to perform on the court, because most of these players that you're working with, they're very, very good at playing tennis. So can you get them to perform on a more consistent basis? Can you get them to perform at a slightly higher level year on year? And a lot of the time that's not going to be through hitting a forehand better or a serve better it's going to be. Can, or a serve better, you know it's going to be. Can they bring themselves to the right level on the court more frequently and over and over again?
Speaker 1so what about if, like as you're saying that, that makes perfect sense to me and I'm thinking about, like a lot of listeners here, club level players, um, and let's say, like they are having maybe not the best time in their life or just had a bad day or something, and they do have a match, are there like techniques or strategies they can use to still perform at a consistent basis or like to kind of reset and block out some of that personal stuff?
Speaker 2yeah, I mean, I think the the big one that we always talk about is, um, is like you're. You're a performer before you're a player, so a bit like like an actor. For example, you know when they go on stage every night they're going to give a performance and when you play a tennis match, it's the same thing. It's you have to separate who like yourself as a person away from tennis from the person who's playing a match. Um, and if the first thing is, you know what's the energy that you're bringing to the court, and sometimes when you're in a bad, bad space yourself, the best thing you can do is just be a great partner for the other person. So, rather than worrying about yourself so much, can you actually just really focus on your partner? And how can I? How can I lift them up? How can I make them be the best player that they can be on that day?
Speaker 2That's one thing that I feel like can help people. You know, when they're in, when they're in a bad headspace themselves, it's you can get really in your own head about things. So actually, sometimes focusing on something external that you might be able to influence can be, can be a really helpful thing. Um, I also think you know, when you're in a match, the the ability to know that you can play, really, be playing really badly, not playing fantastically well, but if you compete hard and you you bring great energy, you can often get the ball rolling and get started to play better that way. Um, yeah, I think it's different the way that I work. Um, if I was working with somebody, for example, just on a two-week basis, going to a tournament versus someone that I'm going to be in a coaching relationship with for a long time, I'm going to approach that very definitely.
Speaker 2You know you're probably not going to get into that stuff as much. You're going to talk probably a little bit more about things that you can tackle in the short term, which is, you know, strategy, you know being physically prepared to play, being, yeah, being as well prepared for one individual match as you can be versus working with someone for a long time.
Speaker 1It's very different yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I like the advice of focusing on your partner too, um, and trying to lift them up. I think that makes a ton of sense and, yeah, like getting out of your own head that that seems like an optimal way to do it as a double player. Um, so talk a little bit about this part of the season. We're in the middle of clay season, the French Open coming up. Do you like this part of the season? How does it compare to, kind of the rest of the year?
Clay Court Doubles Strategy
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean I like this time of year for the simple fact that it's in Europe and I live in London and it just means that I'm not so far away from home. I've got two small children, so sometimes in between tournaments if there's two or three days where I can get home, I'll sometimes go home to see them, so I like that aspect of it for me on a personal level. I also like the clay. I quite like the clay. Generally, players that I've coached in the past have had have a fairly good record at Roland Garros and, um, yeah, I've, I've, I've just always quite enjoyed it. I wouldn't say I love Roland Garros as a tournament to work at. They make it quite difficult at times for for doubles people and for coaches it's it's not the easiest place to to to work at but, I've got some good memories there, which I think is why I quite like the clay season.
Speaker 2Is there, uh, anything like strategy, tips or tactics that work better on clay than other surfaces? Yeah, I mean, I think on the on the clay um, I mean on the clay for me, like two, two back as a return option, all of a sudden it becomes really effective. Especially if you've got two players who have got great ground strokes, they can really neutralize the serving team, get into a lot of points. It's not easy to poach and put balls away when you're playing against a team that are playing two back. I think at the very top level in men's doubles it's maybe a bit easier because they're taller, they get closer to the net, so they have more angles to finish the, finish the ball off the court. But probably at the club level and stuff, you know players aren't getting as close to the net, so to put the ball away to the side of the court it's a little bit more difficult.
Speaker 2So I think you know playing two back on the play if you're playing a very good. You know playing two back on the clay if you're playing a very good. Uh, you know serving team or a good net team it's, it's a good way to to neutralize their strengths. Um, I also think as well, like, if you're someone who's got a really strong kick serve, it can be really effective on a clay court. Um, or if I'm a player who loves who loves their forehand, it's great because on the juice court I can serve and get forehands easy, and on the ad core I can just stand over towards the alleys, put my serve in and then go to work with my forehand. So, um, yeah, I think that those are some of the benefits of the clay compared to the faster surfaces.
Managing Multiple Tour Players
Speaker 1How do you manage? So? You've got Olivia and Teresa, which fortunately is the same team, and then Des, who's had, I think, five different partners this year. I was looking earlier. I think I counted that right. How do you manage three players in each of these tournaments? What's kind of your process for that?
Speaker 2um. So I mean, I mean basically it's. It's. It's fairly simple, because a lot of the practices that I'll do with live in teresa, uh will do as a team.
Speaker 2Very rarely do we do as much like as many individual sessions.
Speaker 2We do do some, but it's it's more more team-based um.
Speaker 2And then with des, I do a lot of individual sessions with her and then she tries to find maybe another doubles player who's playing with a singles player. She'll try to link up with one of those to play practice points with. But I think the way that I would coach the team of Livin Cereza versus Dez is different, because when it's Dez playing with different partners, you know mixing around a lot differently. You have to really focus in on what are the elements that she can control from her side and how can she impact a match as much as possible as an individual, whereas with living Teresa we we talk a lot more about what can we do as a team to be effective together here. Um, so the way that I work with them is it is different. You know that all three of them have different needs, but one of them is a team and the other one is an individual, so so you have to manage that a little bit differently what are some of the keys for, uh, for you and des.
Speaker 1If she's playing a tournament with a new partner and let's say, um, this week she's playing with nicole melichar martinez, who's a good doubles player, um, but let's say she's playing with more of a singles player, who's not necessarily prioritizing doubles and doesn't have the kind of doubles mindset. What are some of the, I guess, questions you ask or conversations you have either with Des or with the partner?
Speaker 2I mean, to be honest, there's quite a range of different partners in terms from the singles player point of view. Some of them are quite interested in, you know, hearing about, right, what's some strategies to try and use against these guys. Some of them just want to be left to just play. They just want to serve, return, hit the ball and just play. And some of them are good enough to. And some of those these players are good enough to do that because often, often, their serve and return level is stronger than some of the doubles players. You know. They just have bigger, better serves and they can kind of put the return wherever they want. So it very much depends on which part, on which of those types of players she's playing with.
Speaker 2So with Des, we'll focus a lot more on what are the things that are within her control in a match and try to put as much of her focus there as possible, um. So so that that's been a big focus for her this year, because last year she played with caroline a lot, which was great. So we kind of got a bit of a bit of a team vibe going, which was really really good, um, but then this year she's obviously played with multiple different partners, so that that's been a little bit more difficult to get that same vibe, um, so we've had to focus a lot on, yeah, what can she control? What can she take care of? What's her, what does her role look like, depending on who she plays with? Um, and, and yeah, that's kind of how how I approach it with theirs okay, so what about for like?
Speaker 1let's say there's a club player listening and they're playing a tournament next week and they're playing with a new partner. Maybe like two or three questions. They should ask their new partner um, aside from like, do you play deuce or add?
Speaker 2yeah, okay. So I think the first one would be um, the first one I'm trying to actually ask someone is uh, how do you do you want me to be like as your partner? Like if you're, if you're making mistakes, do you want me to like come in and like say don't worry, it's okay, cause some people love that, some people hate it, some people don't want to hear that from their partner. So the first thing would be like what, what type of energy do you want me to bring to the court? You know, how do you want me to be, how do you want me to behave? Um, and then the second thing would would just be around whether they prefer to serve at the start of the match, like in that team. Would they rather be the first person to serve?
Speaker 2Because I think often people don't talk about that. They kind of just go on there and then when they get to the court they go, oh well, I'll just serve first, when actually it could be, one of them gets a little bit more nervous and maybe they need to get into the match a little bit more before they can free up a little bit. So that would probably be a very good question to ask. And then the last one would just be around overheads how are we going to call overheads? Am I shouting me, am I shouting you? Just so you're really clear on the communication of that, because I think that, though I think that's pretty important as well.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, the communication is so key and I love the first answer you like, rather than leading with a strategy thing, it's more of like an emotional thing. And how can you get your partner to be the performer right, right and to execute at a high level and to feel good about their game? Because, you're right, like there are so many players who, after they miss a bad shot, like they don't want their partner talking to them, but a lot of them need that support and like you need to know that, like that's really important yeah, I think I love that you led with that.
Olivia's Development and Success
Speaker 2Just going back on that, I think strategy is actually is is is often made out to be such a huge part of of of success at a high level. But but fundamentally, like, if I don't go on the court and perform, the strategy is redundant. Because if I'm you know, if I'm going out there and I'm you know, I've got a really clear game plan of what I want to do, but actually my attitude's not very good. I'm not bringing the right level of energy to the court. Then it doesn't matter. So I always like to talk about that first, and whenever we do team talks or team chats before matches, the performer's always going to be the first thing we're going to try and talk about. Yeah, the performer is always going to be the first thing we're going to try and talk about yeah.
Speaker 1So I want to talk a little bit about Olivia's progress. So over the last few years she's continued to, I guess, almost like cut her ranking in half every year. Just about what do you attribute that success to? That consistent success? Because it's easy to do that from one year to the next, but she's been able to do that several years in a row now.
Speaker 2I mean, I think the first thing would be is that her commitment to her own development is really good. Like, her attitude towards her own development is is fantastic, she. There's a very clear process always about matches. You know, you plan the match, you play the match, you review the match every single time, relentlessly, like it doesn't matter if it was good, if it was bad, it's it's, it's relentless of just that, that cycle of reviewing and looking for improvement. Um, it's very simple, but it's really hard to do that over and over and over again. Um, and I would say that I would say that that is probably the the biggest thing from her point of view that that she can influence is that her attitude towards learning over and over again is really good. Um, so that's, that's that.
Speaker 2And then I would say this the second thing is she is always you know she, she she's always had a pretty good support team. Her coach back home, tom, who she works with at university, is is is fantastic and is great with her, and she's always been able to rely on him, um, for like feedback on video and things like that and then and he's great, and then she's also benefited over the years from, as a federation, the LTA, do support doubles quite a lot, um. So the way that I first started working with with Liv was was through the federation. I do some consulting work for them, um, and so she's always, you know, it's not it's very rare for a doubles player of that ranking to have, I think, such a good level of support. You know, until you're ranked probably inside the top 50, it's very difficult to probably pay a coach to come and help you, whereas Liv's been able to access that she's had the support for quite a long time. So that would be, I think, the two key parts of it.
Speaker 2And then, from a game perspective, her game has just developed year on year in in multiple different ways. You know she's always been a really good service partner. She's always had great skills in that department, um. But you know, when I first started working with her, probably four years ago, she used to just hit her backhand over and over again and wouldn't really hunt her forehand, and it took quite a long time to to get her to really believe and buy into the fact that her forehand is is the weapon if she positions herself right and unloads on it. Her forehand's really high quality, um, and it's. It's something that I find quite common with it with a lot of players. You know that they've grown up with this idea, especially in the female game. They've got a great backhand but but a weak forehand, um, and it's really, really common, and I think what a lot of them don't realize is that by taking the forehand in the ad court more frequently, as a right hander.
Speaker 2It's so much more effective than just hitting backhands again and again. Even if you've got a great backhand, it's so much more difficult for the opposing net player to poach the forehand. You can hold the shot a lot longer on a forehand than you can a backhand, because the contact point's a little bit further back. Um. You can shape the ball differently with a forehand than you can a backhand. There's so many benefits to doing it and I would say that's one thing that she really bought into. After. After a little bit of time, she bought into that and she's relentlessly improved that over and over again every year yeah, that's a huge takeaway that club players can do too.
Speaker 1Like if you play in the ad court and this is something I do like run around your backhand, um, yeah, yeah, when I'm that net player and I see the ad court player running around their backhand, like I like my knees kind of buckle, like I don't know, I want to poach, but like I know they're hitting a forehand which, like you said, has more pace, more shape, it's going to be a more difficult volley and they can take it inside in. So it's like there's just a lot of benefits to that it's also, it also involves less.
Speaker 2It also involves less running. If I, if I'm in the ad court and I go and stand in the alleys like if I have my feet inside the alleys, um, I don't have to run. If a player hits a really good wide angle shot, I can just get there in one step, whereas actually, if the opposing team start hitting the ball through the middle, that's great news because it means I'm still hitting my forehand and my partner might be able to get some touches on a volley now. So yeah, if you want to do less running as a as a club doubles player in the ad court, just stand in the stand in the ad court, just stand in the stand in the alleys.
The Secret to Des's Mixed Doubles
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, and your partner can can hug middle more. Yeah, because if you're hitting a forehand assuming you you know you hit a quality forehand that's going to be a very difficult ball for that other ad court player to redirect right exactly, it's probably going to be heavy. It's going to be have more pace, so. So that'll allow your partner to get more involved anyways. So yeah tons of benefits. Um why is des, or what makes des, so good at mixed doubles?
Speaker 2uh well, she plays with british players all the time, so that definitely helps. Um, no, I mean I think des is a great. She's a really good partner for the guys because I think she's kind something. She'll often say something to them Because she's been playing with either Joe or Neil for quite a long time now. I think the fact that they're really good friends I'm really good friends with those guys as well I think it just means that the team chemistry is generally always pretty good.
Speaker 2And then from a game point of view, I think you know she's a great returner. She's got great returns. She can use the chip lob. She's got quite a lot of variation with her return. When she's performing well, she can really mix her returns about well. And then also the other thing is that she as a lefty I feel like a lot of the guys struggle off of her lefty serve Because it doesn't come through at the same kind of pace as some of the guys. I think her serve sometimes hitting the slower lefty serve. A lot of the men really struggle with it and actually it gives Neil a lot of time to fake and poach from the bounce that the other player hitting the making contact with the return. He can actually influence the returner quite a lot. So I think that that's one of the reasons why she's had quite a bit of success this might be a question I have to ask her.
Speaker 1But do you have an example of her kind of giving her partner some, some crap and like um, yeah, I mean I know with joe at usa, I mean this is going back to 2021.
Speaker 2I I can't remember. I I don't know if I remember the story well or not, but I know that there were times during those matches where where she would like try and pull him up, sort of thing, and say come on, joe, like we've got, we've got to lift it here a little bit.
Speaker 2Um yeah but you know with neil, like with neil, sometimes she'll crack a joke. You know so, sometimes if ne Neil's feeling a little bit tense on the bench or whatever, she'll crack a joke and you'll just see them laughing. I'll know what that joke is already because she's already pre-planned it before the match. We'll talk about that before the match sometimes. What joke are you going to have lined up today, just in case if you need it? So you know there's yeah.
Speaker 2Can you share a joke with us, or are they, uh, a little bit not safe, for the one that she used during I think it was during their run to french final last year, um, I think the one that she used it was maybe in there I don't know if it was quarterfinal or semifinal match, um but I think she said to himself like, oh, oh, what's a pirate's favorite letter? And he's gone. Ah, and she's gone. No, it's C so and you can just see them chatting, so just, like dumb cheesy jokes. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2It's dumb dad jokes, which probably is my influence as well, because that's why I spend a lot of my time doing it as a dad as well.
Speaker 1So yeah, that's good, I like that a lot, my time doing it as a dad as well. So, yeah, that's good, I like that a lot. Um, so the last couple questions here. If I were to ask and you can answer this, um, I guess, however you like, like one of for one player, or, um, or, I'm sorry, for one for each player, or just as a whole. Yeah, so if I were to ask olivia teresa and des what makes cra a good tennis coach, what would they say?
Speaker 2That's a good question. I'm not sure on that. I think, um, I think it's different for each of them. Like, with Des it's a bit different because we both probably like grown together at certain times during her career. Because you know when, when I first started working with her, I'd maybe been coaching it like more like a tour level for maybe two years, three years. I hadn't been doing it as long.
Speaker 2Um, so when I first started with Des, it probably would have been more so around, like the insights that I would bring to a game, because I'm pretty heavy on the stats and stuff. You know I'll tag matches and do things like that. So I think for des, that would have been what she would have said at the start of our probably coaching when I first started working with her. And then, um, for theresa, I know that like she likes the way that I coach during matches. I think I have quite a good influence on her in matches. I think I have quite a good read on when are the moments where I need to be more assertive and louder and more vocal and have more presence as a coach, and when are the moments where I just need to remind her like you're doing fine, like, be very calm, be very relaxed. So that's probably it for those two and then, and then for Liv it would probably be, I would say, more like the experiences that I've had over the last what seven, seven or eight years now. Um, you know I've built up quite a lot of experience, um, at tournaments at this level.
The State of Doubles Tennis
Speaker 2Um had lots of different experiences and different scenarios. You know, grand slam finals, to like playing the first round of 60k, 25k. You know I've got quite a a broad experience of professional tennis and, yeah, probably just the experience for her has probably helped her when she's playing. You know she played rome. This is the first time she's played rome and madrid this year. So even little things, like me knowing where everything is, and you know she doesn't feel quite like such a rookie sort of thing. You know she kind of, yeah, it feels a bit more comfortable in the environment. Um, so maybe that's what they would say. I don't know, you'd have to ask them, but those are maybe the different things that they would say yeah, I'll ask him at some point, but that's, that's good.
Speaker 1So last topic here I want to talk about just kind of doubles in general and how we can make it more popular. I'm going to ask this a little bit differently than I normally do, though. So you're in the clay swing. You talked a little bit earlier about how the French Open makes it a little bit hard for doubles coaches to work at and doesn't necessarily prioritize doubles as much. Um, how does the kind of clay swing European swing compare in terms of, like doubles crowds, how the tournaments are promoting them to the rest of the season and what? What tournaments do you feel like do a good job and we can kind of take away from those and and implement that across the rest of the tour? Answer that, however you'd like.
Speaker 2I know that was a lot um, no, no, I mean, I think um, one of the things that I, that I, I feel I mean this is just from the, from the theme, the wta perspective, not not so much maybe the men's perspective, but generally the tournaments that are well supported in singles are also well supported in doubles, like um. So when you go to, when you go to, obviously, indian wells, miami, um, you know especially indian wells, obviously, that they watch a lot of doubles indian wells. They really like it there, but it's generally very busy for singles and doubles at indian wells. Then you go to miami, it's really really busy for singles and doubles at indian wells. Then you go to miami, it's really really busy for singles and it's still generally very busy for doubles. Now I go to the middle east in february. There's not really anybody watching singles or doubles at those tournaments, like it's not. It's not like the, the, it's not like you've got 10 000 people or 5 000 people on center court watching a women's singles match and then only three people watching a doubles. You've, you've not got many people watching singles or doubles. When you go to the middle east, um, and then you know, on the clay swing, it's reasonably what, it's reasonably well supported. I, I, I don't feel that the doubles issue is so big on the women's side as it is on the men's side. I think on the men's side it's a far bigger talking point than it is than it is on wta tour, because also on the wta tour you have a lot of the top singles players play doubles as well. So we we don't have the same issues as the guys, but I feel like we're getting lumped in to the same conversations as the men, even though it's even though I don't feel that we have the same challenge.
Speaker 2Steve Simon spoke to a group of coaches in Toronto last year and their opinion was that they were actually very much happy with their doubles product. They didn't feel like they needed to change anything. They felt like everything was in a pretty good place and actually sometimes at those one-week Masters events or the ones that are a bit shorter, they don't want the top singles players playing doubles all the time because it messes with their scheduling. You know, if they've got, if they've got, coco Goff during a one week masters event playing singles and doubles and she's winning matches in both of them, that's a nightmare for them because they want to put her on a night match. So you know this whole narrative around more singles players playing.
Speaker 2I don't think I don't think it's actually much of an issue on the female side. I think we have the balance. We have the balance pretty good. I don't feel like there's a massive, massive difference in what's being watched. Of course, the very top players you know Sabalenka Coco, the top five to ten players in the world Sabalenka Coco, the top you know, top five to 10 players in the world they're always going to draw massive crowds but they're also going to draw massive crowds to their practice sessions as well. But you know, you go and watch two girls or two guys rank 50, 60 in the world playing. They're not pulling in much of a bigger crowd. Players on the court. I think this, I think the narrative is. I don't think the narrative is that accurate at the moment around what's being pushed out that people don't watch doubles um I think, um, yeah, I think one issue that we run into is the um.
Speaker 1A lot of the images you might see like going around instagram and twitter are the like semifinal matches at the US Open or something when it's on Louis Armstrong and there's not many people there and it's like an empty stadium and I think that is, um, I don't know, kind of cherry picking.
Speaker 1Uh, first of all, like because that's not that's not a good sample of, like, the general doubles tour, but it's also a problem of just promotion for me at the tournaments. So, like you know, when, when people buy a US Open semifinal day ticket, like how many of them actually know that the doubles is happening on Louis Armstrong? Like they're probably just going into Ash and not even thinking about it. Is happening on louie armstrong like they're probably just going into ash and not even thinking about it. So if, if the us open could promote the doubles a bit more or um, and not to pick on them like all of the, the majors and even the 1000 level events around that kind of semi-final and final day, yeah, um could help yeah, no, I think I think the way that it's it's tricky because, like you say, they they definitely cherry pick certain pitches that show the doubles in that light.
Speaker 2But if we were all being really adamant about doing that for singles, we could probably do that for singles as well. Like you know, how many times have I been at a Masters 1000 somewhere and you've got two singles players and it's a seven o'clock match in the evening and there's not that many people watching? You know, I, I think that there's multiple occasions where I've, where I've also seen that as a coach as well. Um, I think I, I do think for the guys it's it's, it's a very different, a very different challenge than what we have. Um, because I think a lot of the stuff that I see around this discussion is very based on the men's doubles game. I don't think a lot of the stuff is as true for the women's.
Speaker 2I mean, you've only got to look at the Irani-Paolini doubles match in Rome. Like it's wild. I mean, caroline and Des played them in the semis of Rome last year on centre court and it was like being in a slam final. It was deafening the noise in there. Um, you know, I know, when there's an election play. They played coco and katie mcnally in cincinnati maybe four years ago and it was standing room only and there were people queuing up to get in. So and and that was a first round match, it's a first round doubles match and people are queuing to get in. So you know, I think you can shape the narrative whichever way you want to do it. I just think because there's so many more people that are singles based and more people that want to push, that it's it. It comes out a lot more yeah.
Speaker 1Uh, so last comment and I'll give you a chance to reply and then we'll hop off here. Um so one thing somebody told me at indium wells this was a coach on the men's side. They said that they thought one reason the men's doubles might be struggling a bit more than the women's is that on the men's double side you can get into these tournaments with your singles ranking, whereas on the women's side, like if Coco wants to keep playing, and of course she can get a wild card, but like you know, siniakova, for example, or Taylor Townsend, like if they want to keep playing doubles, they have to keep their doubles ranking up. Um, whereas like Andre Rublev or whoever, like Dimitrov, whoever from the men's side, like they just have to have a high singles ranking and they can get in yeah.
Speaker 1I mean it's.
Speaker 2It's, yeah, the entry procedures for the two tours are different. So, um, so, if I give you like a 60 in a 16 draw on the women's side, you'll get 11 teams, 11 teams or 12 teams in on the advanced entry. Then there'll be three teams that will get in on site which is the best of their singles or doubles ranking they can use on site, but in advance it's purely based on your doubles ranking. In advance it's only based on your doubles ranking. So, um, so, yeah, like the doubles players maybe have a bit more protection on the women's side and that once they get their ranking to a certain level, they know that they can get into tournaments. Whereas for the guys you've probably got to be inside the top 30-ish, I would say for the men's to make sure you're getting in the Masters tournaments because the singles players can use their rankings.
Speaker 2I think if the men move to the same system as the women, I think you would run into the problem that the singles guys just wouldn't bother playing. You know, I don't. I don't think they would. You know, I don't think changing the entry procedure is going to all of a sudden make Andre Rublo think. Right, I've got to play 10 doubles events this year to keep my double drinking. Because because the only reason they're doing it is to get an extra match here or there, whereas some of the girls that are playing singles and doubles, the prize money on WTA tour is not as high as it is on the men's tour. So okay, for Coco and those very top ones the money doesn't matter. But for some of those slightly lower ranked singles players, they're earning a good amount of money by playing more doubles. It probably covers their coaching costs and expenses for the year for some of those guys.
Speaker 2So I think it's. Yeah. I think that there is. The two tours are just so different. The two tours, the way that they're operated, the entry procedures, the nature of what players ranked at a certain ranking need on the men's tour versus the women's tour, of what players ranked at a certain ranking need on the men's tour versus the women's tour. You know, a guy ranked 35, 40 in the world in singles is making very different money to a female ranked around that ranking. So I think it's, yeah, I think it's very different.
Speaker 1Yeah, I love these conversations because I learn something new every time. Craig thanks a ton for hopping on and hopefully we can do it again at some point in the future.
Speaker 2Sounds good. Great to see you all.