Doubles Only Tennis Podcast

ATP Finals, Momentum in Tennis, Return Training, 2025 Reflections, & the Off-Season with Calvin Betton

• Will Boucek • Episode 264

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0:00 | 54:05

Calvin Betton coaches ATP #3 doubles player, Henry Patten, and ATP #38, Luke Johnson. Henry and his partner, Harri Heliovaara, won the ATP Finals earlier this month. I spoke with them at Indian Wells earlier this year (listen here).

This conversation with Calvin unpacks their title run at the ATP Finals, the idea of momentum in doubles, and how return pressure transformed late‑season results. We reflect on the 2025 season and look ahead to 2026.

  • Lessons from variance and tight losses
  • Why momentum misleads us in doubles scoring
  • ATP Finals format and strategic adjustments
  • Scouting top teams and exposing patterns
  • Return identities and training frameworks
  • A deepdive into the lob return: topspin vs flat vs chip lobs
  • Off‑season planning for Henry and Luke
  • US Open mixed doubles impact and narratives
  • Partnership updates and 2026 outlook

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SPEAKER_00

You're about to hear my conversation with coach Calvin Betton. Calvin is the coach of Henry Patton, who just won the ATP finals in doubles with Harry Hilivara. And he also coaches Luke Johnson, who reached a career high ranking this year of 28 in the world. I wanted to have Calvin on after seeing him on TV coaching at the ATP finals and ultimately his team winning the ATP finals. And we talk a lot about his experience there, what clicked and worked so well for Henry and Harry towards the end of the year. And we also discussed kind of the year overall, 2025 as a whole. We talked about the adversity they faced throughout the year, how they dealt with very difficult losses. We talked about the offseason, what training looks like for Henry and Luke. I asked him specifically about returns because he talked a lot about how Henry and Luke are both such good returners. So I asked him how he thinks about training the return in doubles. And I really liked his answer to this question. We also discussed partnership updates for 2026. We talked about the US Open Mixed Doubles as we kind of reflect on that as a very significant experiment for doubles earlier this year and a lot more. So this is a really fun conversation. Calvin always uh says it like it is and um gives us lots of insights into the ATP doubles tour. So without further delay, enjoy this conversation with Calvin Betton. Hey everybody, welcome to the show. Today we have Calvin Betton back on. Calvin, welcome back.

SPEAKER_02

Good to be here, Will. Hope you're all good.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, everything's good over here. Um, you all had a uh a good end to the year winning uh Paris in the ATP finals with um Henry Patton and Harry Hiliovara. I want to talk about the year or the end of the year um here in a minute, but before I get to that, um remind me, was this your third year on tour on the ATP tour coaching?

SPEAKER_02

Um it depends what you call ATP tour because I've split you know some of them between challenges and uh chat I I haven't kept count. I guess I mean I mean I did Wimbledon with Luke before I coached Henry, so I did Wimbledon like in and a couple of ATP tournaments in 21, maybe. And then um although Luke also played Wimbledon 2019, but I wasn't there that year. Um then I guess in terms of like third, I guess third year in total, like yeah, I've been it you know, almost exclusively ATPs, I guess.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. So so I imagine being basically, I guess you could call it full-time ATP. Um, you're only coaching at ATP events, you're learning.

SPEAKER_02

I I don't think I've been to a challenger this year. Okay.

Lessons From Results And Variance

SPEAKER_00

Because I remember talking with you, I think it was at Indian Wells, and you said like it was your first time there, or maybe it was the first time at Indian Wells, but I guess like for you know, for doubles guys, the the masters are not easy to get in.

SPEAKER_02

You can be full-time on the ATP tour and never go to a masters, you know.

SPEAKER_00

Right, that's true. Um, but but my question for you is what is something you learned this year as a coach, whether it be um about yourself or your coaching style or about the the tours in general?

SPEAKER_02

I mean, I guess it it's not it's something that I'm continuing to learn and to try and get better with. I get quite sort of wrapped up in results, and especially with doubles, like with the scoring systems, like you just can sometimes be on a little bit of run of bad luck and things don't go your way, and it doesn't mean you're playing any worse than than what you are, and you you know, it's any worse than what you were, and sometimes those results just don't go your way, and equally, you know, you can you can just find your way through a few matches where you don't play that well, but um you know, so it's it's difficult. But I mean, I guess the main thing was like, especially at different stages in this year, was you know, because as a coach, you're always kind of working, like you're you're always working to develop players of that kind of thing, and and I still am, this never stops what I'm gonna say. But there were moments this year where like, I mean, Henry, I think now is the best doubles player in the world, and I think around about the French Open, Luke was playing the best tennis of anybody in the world as well. And there are moments where you know you think, right, okay, now you know, we're always sort of striving to get to that, and you think, wow, we're actually up here, and that doesn't mean you stop working, you're always trying to get better and better, but you know, it was quite a sort of you know, a moment when you think, yeah, you know, this is kind of it. We keep working, but this is kind of like what we've been striving for, really.

SPEAKER_00

Um, two follow-up questions there. So, one, you talked about the strings of bad luck, which um I know you're you're both your players had had some of this year. What do you how did you deal with it this year? And then how do you think you'll deal with it maybe differently going forward if you do say lose first round or second round in three or four tournaments in a row?

Processing Tough Losses And Reviews

SPEAKER_02

I mean, it's it's more just the nature of the matches, you know, that there are certain matches where, like, for example, the Wimbledon quart final that Henry and Harry lost, like, and that I don't wish to take any credit away at all from Julian and Lloyd, who were my friends, and around about that time, they were certainly deserving, and they were the best team in the world, you know, that they deserved that Wimbledon title and what have you. But I came away that that was from one of those matches where at the time I felt it, and even I didn't watch the match for about two or three weeks after, but when I watched the match after it, everything that you know, we have certain metrics where I gauge the matches on, and everything pointed to we're gonna win this match. You know, when you talk about momentum moments and and crossroad moments in a match, and we won almost every single one of them. Um, and we won more big points and everything, but they just found a way at the end, and you know, that that match was that match was particularly difficult for me to get over, I think. And I think it was the same for I mean, Henry tends to not stress about these things too much, but I know Harry, it was it was, you know, he had some sleepless nights over it as well. Um, and don't get me wrong, you know, we've won a lot of these close matches over the last couple of years, so I'm not saying we would deserve it of it or anything like that. You always get what you deserve in any match, but it was one of those where you think, I I I don't get how we could have done anything more there. And and that's not like, but it wasn't good enough, it's just like, and that isn't even the scoring system because that's just normal tennis scoring in a match like that. But you watch it and you think like, I don't get how we've lost that match, everything pointed to it. Whereas at the same time, you had like a very similar match in terms of scoreline was the US Open, where the lads didn't play great at all, um uh Henry and Harry, and we almost won it. We had a match point, and then you know, that one was more like it was a disappointment in the match in in terms of the result, and I was devastated that that they lost the match, but it was more like yeah, we we didn't do enough to win that match. Whereas at Wimbledon, it was like more we threw everything at it, and it something happened that just didn't go our way, you know. Like whether it be like I'm at one of the match points, Harry returns a ball that's a centimetre out or less than a centimetre out, that would have been a winner, even on the match point that that Lloyd and Jules won the match with Lloyd's first serve and Harry hits an unbelievable backhand return winner, and the ball, the the it turns out the serve was out by about a millimeter and a half, um, and things like that. You know, it's just always on the margins, and then there are other matches as well, like Luke and Sanders match at the US Open was was massively disappointing as well. Like, again, similar, like you just think how have we come away and not winning this match.

SPEAKER_00

What does the the team meeting look like after matches like that? Do you all talk through it?

SPEAKER_02

Or yeah, I mean we always we always do it it it varies a lot of the time. Like Wimbledon was very, you know, it was a tough one. We you know, we stuck together as a team, and you know, it was just one of those. Uh yeah, the one benefit is you could go, look, we we threw everything at it out there. There's nothing, it's a tough match to review because you know, you the the questions that you'd ask when when you're reviewing roundabout in in many ways are what what did we do well there? What would we want to carry on doing, and what would we do better if we were to play it again? And there's not much you can go, what will we do better in matches like that? You know, whereas that was different. The US Open matches were um both both of my team's matches that they lost there were more like that there's a whole lot we could have done better there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's interesting. I uh when I'm playing or coaching matches, one thing I guess that you mentioned was Harry had uh maybe some sleepless nights after the Wimbledon loss. But one thing that helps me not have those sleepless nights is to make sure I did everything I could to prepare and execute at the best level possible. And if I do that and lose, I can still go to sleep at night. Versus if I maybe missed something in the scouting report or maybe made a dumb mental error when I went line and should have gone cross or served to the wrong spot on a big point or whatever it is. I think it can go the other way on that though.

SPEAKER_02

I think it can go the other way on that, though, Willware. Like I think when I say that then, like both me and Harry had sleepless nights, that it was more like, how on earth, you know, we did everything. We did everything.

SPEAKER_00

Like, what are we missing? Kind of.

Does Momentum Actually Exist

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. We did it. And then when I watched it back, like, you know, I have there's certain metrics for scoring and that kind of thing that we have that I won't bore everyone with going into too much detail because we'd be here all night, but everything sort of in the way that the scoring went and and everything, you don't lose those matches, and we lost that one, like everything pointed to it, and like you know, there were big moments. There was a big moment at the start of the third set. I think Henry was love 30 on his serve, and he played four unbelievable points from Love 30, but both him and Harry played them, and everyone in the crowd thought that that was a huge turning point in the match, like you know, that was the break point, and in these matches there are no hardly any breaks, and then it just turned out not to be the break, the big point, and then Jules went love 40 on his serve at 5-6, and you think you know, yeah, but anyway, look, we spoke long enough about that. That Wimbledon uh that Wimbledon quarterfinal, anyway.

SPEAKER_00

How do you um uh the this kind of brings me to a different topic that I wasn't expecting to talk about, but I want to get your thoughts on uh how do you think about momentum and do you measure momentum in matches?

SPEAKER_02

Um it's one of those. I there's two sides to it, Will. You know, it's like people talk about momentum a lot of the time, and at some times you think it's it definitely plays a part, and then other times you you re I'd really believe that it's just complete hokum and it doesn't mean anything, especially in doubles, especially with the scoring system, that things, yeah, there are times where you think it's gone, you know, you know, like that the the momentum's changed, the momentum's swung, but what is it? Because you know, you can say it's a momentum somewhere, but then the other team wins one point and the momentum's the other way. So that kind of thing in singles I think it's it's easier to gauge momentum. There is sort of I know there is some scoring charting systems around that gauge momentum that some of which I've seen are very good, but they do rely on it being full juice and full um full third set um as well. But there are times where, like I say, there are times where momentum, you know, you think it's it's it's fully uh gone one way and then it's it's it it's not, you know, you know, and what does it mean? It's like the turning point in matches, it's just the way that they work. And I think in tennis it's it in in doubles, it's more random as well with the scoring system. You know, you can I've seen matches played where uh you know one team is completely dominant and then the other team plays 10 minutes of good tennis and it's a swing, it's gone the other way. Um you know, and like I've I've seen matches this year with my players. I won't go into like which matches because it's not fair on the opponents and that kind of thing, where you think we're we're we're battering them, and then there's just a five-minute spell where it goes the other way, and suddenly you're you know, seven all in a tie break or seven-eight serving in a tie break. You're like, you know, I don't know, I'll make a random score up, you're like six-one four all, and you've had break points in almost every game in the second set, and before you know it, you know, you've they've held, you've lost a serve, they've caught fire on a couple of returns, and then like five minutes from but you know, you're six-one four all, and then literally like seven minutes later, you're six three down in the match tie break. And you're like, how how are we here? You know, we've been the best pair for we've been the best pair for like 85% of this match.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's something that I I've talked with Dan about actually because he has phrased it, I I guess with Gabby and Aaron this year in a few matches where they were either up big like that, um, with you know uh having dominated through the first set and a half, or even down big in that same way. And one thing Dan said that has kind of stuck with me is um you're always 10 minutes of good tennis or bad tennis away from losing the match. So like in that scenario, um yeah, it takes not long to change the match like that.

SPEAKER_02

You see very few matches, and I'll take away the sing the matches that involve singles guys who are tanking. You see very few 6-2, 6-3 doubles matches. Like you, you know, it just it it I don't know the actual numbers on it, but I I reckon less than well, put it this way. I know what somebody once said that that they and I think it was somebody from UTR, actually, who told me that they class a competitive match in inverted commas as the losing player or team wins seven games. So in in that in that match. So it could be six, four, six, three would be a competitive match, six, four, six, two wouldn't be. But I don't know how many doubles matches you see on the tour that would would class in the the not competitive range. And I don't think there'd be many at all. Yeah, like even I have matches now. I have matches now where I look back and like I'm thinking back on them now, and I think, yeah, we won that match comfortably. You know, it was like, you know, I think we we played so and so and I think, yeah, it was probably like you know, four and one or something. And then I'll look back at the actual charting that I did on the match, and it's like six and four.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Like you know, and it's like, but you think, but that that's what I'm talking about, like, you know, because most of the time, if you're the better team, you win the match. You know, you you end up just just cruising through winning the match. But there is those times where you don't. So those matches where I'm thinking like that, I'm thinking, yeah, we were in control, we were playing great tennis, that kind of thing. But you know, you in your head, you've got it down as being more comfortable than it was, and you look back on it and it's like six and four, and you're like, wow, we were you know, again, we were 10 minutes away from losing that match.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I'm interested in this back to the momentum thing, and then we'll switch to another topic. But I'm very interested in the the momentum, the kind of tennis theories of momentum. Um, one uh analogy that I've heard before, and I think this was like a I think it was like a Warren Buffett Buffett investment analogy or something, but I think it applies to momentum and tennis too. But if I were to like flip a coin, I may have told you this before. Um, so if this sounds familiar, stop me. But if I were to like flip a coin a hundred times, right, there would be some times during those hundred flips where heads would have like three or four in a row, right? Yeah, and would you say heads has momentum? Like, no, you're flipping a coin, right? So it's like in tennis, just because a team wins like five points in a row or 10 out of 12 points, like I it's hard for me to get behind the idea that that's like momentum versus just chance.

SPEAKER_02

Like over the course of I read a book a few years ago where some coach wrote a book about momentum in tennis, and everybody was like raving about it for a while. This was like probably 20 years ago, like the British coach who wrote it, and everyone was raving about it. This book's amazing. And then I read it, and it's not a long book, I think it's probably about 100 pages, and then at the end of it, like it was like tips on you know, right, what do you do with this information? And like tip one was if you have the momentum, try and keep it. And tip two was if you if the momentum is with the opponent, try and grasp it from them. I'm like, right, that's brilliant. That's it. That's all you've got. Well, you know, but and that is what what I get, you know, what it's one of those things, yeah. Maybe it is, you know, there is force of momentum, but like what you can do with it is, you know, this stuff like, yeah, take your time a bit, you know, don't let the match run away from you. But at the end of the day, good tennis, good tennis wins. Play good tennis. That's all you can do. You can play good tennis.

Inside The ATP Finals Format

SPEAKER_00

So uh I want to talk about the ATB finals. Um, it's obviously a very different format. How is it different from the other tournaments throughout the year? And how do you approach it differently as a coach?

SPEAKER_02

Um, a couple of things. You you know you're there for a week, you know, you're well longer than that because we got there on like a Wednesday. You know you're there until at least the following Thursday or Friday, depending when you play your first match. So you kind of settle in. I always say this, it's it's one of the only tournaments where I actually unpack my bag. Um because I know I'm gonna be there. The only other one I think that I've unpacked my bag this year was US Open because basically because I knew then we were there for like five days. So I put my stuff in the drawers and in the wardrobe, you know, you know, but anything else, I don't like to take anything for granted. So I just leave things in the bag and I get them out in the morning when I want to get dressed, and um, you know, there's almost no point. So that you you you know, you you're there for a while. Um, there's a round robin feel. As it happens, the round robin feel this year actually didn't come into massive effect. It was like obviously we lost a match uh in the second we lost the second match. We beat Harrison and King first match, played great, um, and then in the second match, um we lost to Salisbury Skupsky. Um, so then you have another match, but then as it happened, that other match just basically turned into a quarter final because that was winner goes through. So then it's it's a knockout from there. So, you know, so almost apart from the one that we lost, almost every turn, every match was a knockout. You want to win your first match, you don't want to go losing your first match, so you're trying to win it, but you know, but yeah, like you know, there are stages, there are times when with the with the round robin, and we've only played it twice. Last year we won every match, so it it wasn't you know, it never felt different there. It was keep winning every match, and then you're out when you lose. And this year, there are times when it's oh we may just need a set to go through here, but it wasn't that. The the match we played this year was a straight, the the last match was a straight winner goes through against Arab Alopavich. So um, in that respect, it didn't actually feel a whole lot different.

Scouting Top Teams And Patterns

SPEAKER_00

Um, what what about like the I guess all the these teams you've played multiple times, so you've probably got kind of your scouting reports and all that ready to go for the most part before the tournament. Does that change a lot going into the ATP finals, or do you feel like you know all the teams, you're just gonna focus on preparing your players and getting them ready to go?

SPEAKER_02

I mean, as it happens though, Will, we actually didn't play all of them that a great deal this year. So before the draw came out, we'd played Harrison and King once, we played Granola Zebayos once, we hadn't played we played Kraviat's press twice in the first two weeks of the year, then hadn't played them since. So we played them in Adelaide and then Australian Open, haven't played them since. We played Joe and Neil a few times, played Joe and Neil three times before this. We played Julian and Lloyd five times, obviously, but they weren't in our group. Aravelopavich, we hadn't played. The Italians, we haven't played since Australia, um, second week of the year. Um I think that's it. So in terms of that, we it's not like we, apart from Joe and Neil and Lloyd and Jules, we actually hadn't played loads of these top 10 players, uh, top 10 teams a great deal. Um so yeah, there was a lot of scouting. I did a lot of scouting um on each of the teams. Um we tried a couple of different things this time. I did a couple of like video attachments to the scouting reports, which is something I've I've been trying to add. Um, still trying to work my way around the best way of doing that. Um some teams, you know, some there are certain teams that have very uh pronounced uh things that they do that you can jump on, and there are some teams that don't. That you know, you go, there's not a whole lot of weaknesses in these. Um again, I don't want to go into which of those teams they are, but there would, you know, I'd I'd put both of those teams into two. I put probably apart from us, there were three teams who you think they're they're very, very good, and there's not whole lots of weaknesses or even patterns that they follow. They vary everything very well, and there's others that you go, they do this every time. And once you've got that, they do this every time, or they never do this, then you can start getting a good scouting report. But um yeah, there was a lot of scouting, you know. This you know, sort of the the ways of doing it is we use the data and we watch the matches, and then there's also like a feel thing as well. And I also had like a bit of help this time. So Boris Harry's coach was there, and um and yeah, so and Lit and Louis was there as well, who you know, I wouldn't say he doesn't like get involved in the scouting report, but you know, he offers his sort of advice on what certain players may do. Although, of course, we played uh Brits twice, he he didn't offer anything, he did he he stays neutral on those.

SPEAKER_00

Sure. Um what what kind of clicked the last two tournaments of the year? They obviously played so well. I was looking through the results from Paris and um the ATP finals, and even the match they lost, I think they won more total points. Um, I think so something I'm looking at a lot, and I'd be interested to hear your take on it. But uh I look at the score line, but I also look at the total points won because that gives me a sense of how close the match was. Like you said earlier, it it can be 7-6, 7-6-4, and it can be very straightforward or it can be very tight, right? Um, and it looks like in I think all these matches except for two in Paris and um and the finals, they won by more than 10 points, which is a significant margin in doubles. So, what was kind of clicking and going so well for them?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, a few things on that. Um I think it's actually been, and this is what we talk about with, you know, especially in doubles, how you know the results don't give a uh necessarily give a perfect view of of where you're at in playing because of that total point. So I can't remember the US Open will, but I think I I can't I think the US Open might be the only match, or maybe the match we we played, we lost to Menseck and Lehechka in Cincinnati. That might be the only match where over the whole summer where we didn't win the most points. Because I know that, for example, that we won the most points in every match in Turin, we won the most points in every match in um in Paris. We lost in the semis in Vienna to Lloyd and Jules, but we won more points in that match, and we won most points in in the two matches before that. Shanghai, we lost to Gwynard and Andreozzi, and we won more points in that match. Um before that, Beijing, they won the tournament, they won the most points in all those in all those matches. Um and then before that was US Open, in which I don't know, we might have won the most points. We lost 7-5 in the third, so it's it's possible.

SPEAKER_00

No, it looks no, it looks like yeah, it looks like they did not 119, 109.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, yeah. So that's going back, you know, so I I think since then, I think we've won the most points in every match.

Why The Late-Season Surge Happened

SPEAKER_00

Okay. So you you felt like even though you know you don't necessarily win Shanghai and uh Vienna, you feel like they're playing at such a high level that any of these.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I mean Shanghai, both Shanghai and Vienna, they were playing very, very well. I mean, they just come off of Beijing, um, which is the first tournament that we won since um since Australian Open. Um and they come off uh they come into Beijing and won that, and then yeah, just kept, you know, they were playing great tennis, everything from then. In Vienna, they played great. Um and then in Shanghai, you know, it was we were all over Guinard Andreozzi in Shanghai, and then it was a strange one. I mean, the courts there were very slow um and it was it was it was night time, it's pretty late at night, and I think it got slower, and that's always going to kind of suit Andreotzi and Guinard and sort of gave them an edge. I think we'd have played them in the daytime, we'd we beat them in Beijing the week before that. Um, but I think going back to like what the main difference is, there's one sort of key difference. Uh there's a few, so sorry, should I say I think over the summer there was, I don't want to go into too much detail about it, but there was the business with Henry getting his fine at Wimbledon, which was a joke. Um, it was a ridiculous situation. Um, and I think that had some layover on on everybody in the team. It just kind of was so stupid that I think it made the whole thing just less enjoyable, just being a tennis player, especially for Henry. I think he'd for somebody whose behaviour is as exemplary as he is, to get a a fine for disciplinary on a disciplinary for something that was a total nonsense. Um that was that kind of had some hangover. Uh Harry was carrying a few niggles over the US hard court season, maybe even from the grass as well. He was having a problem with his foot, um, sort of from Queens, and then nothing major but just two or three niggles all the time that could never really get away from. And Harry's such a warrior on court, he he he wanted to sort of play through everything, but I I don't know, you know, he still played some good ball in that period, but it you know, you only need to be two or three percent off, and it can cause a problem. And then so then coming out of US, I think they both had a break. Henry's sort of you know, the the nonsense that went on at Wimbledon was sort of cleared from his mind a bit, and also Harry had got his body in in good shape again, and then they were good to go again. And sort of in just pure tennis terms, the main difference is the return game. Like we went kind of we just couldn't find a real rhythm on return for the whole summer, really, where I felt like teams were holding serve too comfortably, like you'd we'd have too many matches where teams were getting um just kind of cruising through service games. They go 30 love up almost every time. It's kind of like US Open was kind of like that, which there was no real explanation for why, because we actually at the US Open, we the training was great. We went into the match feeling great, and I know we had a couple of practice sets the day before, and I think we won them like 6'2, 6'1 or something against another good team who ended up doing pretty well. Um and then we went into the the next day we went into the match and just couldn't find a way on certain on return at all. And then since then, since the start of Asia going into um going in right to the end of the year, just constant pressure from return. They were returning unbelievably for the for the last third of the year. And it really got to a stage where, and I said this to the lads in Turin, that it felt like other teams they had to hit their spots, they had to serve at like 75% and hit their spots on serve, or we were all over them like a rush. And and that that's the way it went right to the right to the end of the year to the final. We were just constantly pummeling teams on on return that they they knew they had to serve so well, and on top of that as well, but this hasn't changed, this has been the case really. Like, Henry and Harry are the best serving team in the world. Like, I think teams think us, but and and it's not by miles because Jules and Lloyd are a great serving team. Both of them serve great, both of them volley great, both of them are great service partners. But statistically speaking, if you just look at statistically, Henry and Harry give less. Less breakpoints away, they get broken less, they get less breakpoint opportunities away than any other team. And so when you factor in that they're the best serving team in the world, and then they're returning as well as they were for the last third of the year, that's that's tough to play against.

Mastering The Return In Doubles

SPEAKER_00

You talked about returns, and I think earlier this year when we chatted, uh you mentioned that uh Luke, the other player you coached, um was I think you said he was probably the best returner in the world at the time, maybe. Um what do you do to train returns? Do you have like a specific philosophy or kind of training um regimen that you you follow for training returns in doubles? Um, I mean it's different.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, I still say that Luke is, I still think Luke is one of, if not the best returners in the world. He like the injury kind of put a stall on that. He broke his wrist two weeks before Wimbledon. And you know, but his returning, you know, he he returned great at at US Open and then throughout the um throughout the indoor season, although it's always going to be better to return on slower courts. Um but yeah, um in terms of how we train it, um there isn't a specific way, Willie. Depends like players are different, you know. I don't like to put my players into a sort of pigeonhole of like I train them all the same way. They play entirely different games, you know. So like like Luke returns in a different manner from Henry, and both of them return in a different manner from Harry. Um, so you know, it's not something that we do. And I think it's like it's kind of having an identity as a player that you know, this or an identity as a returner. What kind of returner are you? Are you a destructive returner? Like, say, I would say that Luke, I would say both Luke and Henry are probably like in different ways, but they're destructive returners. Whereas you've got other good returners, I guess guys like sort of like Matt Eden, Nicola Mektich, those kind of returners who are the kind of guys who they're just gonna make you play a ball. They're not gonna hit a whole lot of clean winners straight past you, but they're gonna find a way of making you play a ball and get it past the return, the service partner often enough and that kind of thing. And then you've got kind of returners like a bit like guess like what Harry is, in that they they're kind of the returners that I say they just they come up with some magic every now and then. You know, they might be they might not have made a return for two or three games and then they they find something, or Harry can do Harry can kind of do all three though, he can make people play and he can be destructive as well, like he's some unbelievable backhand returns in Turin. But I think different types of returns. Then you get the guys who who lob a whole lot, like no one really fancies uh serving against um Sadio Dumbier. He's gonna just lob a lot, and like Romboli and Smith have kind of got that going this year, and it's it's something that we've we we have kind of added like to both Henry and Luke this year in different ways. Like Henry have worked a lot on on him lobbying, particularly on the on the backhand side, but also a bit on the forehand side of using a chip lob a bit more just so teams can't just camp on top of the net. Um Luke, I would say maybe 18 months ago, start adding a top spin lob into his repertoire, into his game, and he he uses that extremely well now, um, to the extent where I think he he can go now off both wings, he can go line or cross off both wings. And that is one of the reasons why he's so feared as a returner. I think he's on especially on his backhand side, he has an unbelievable inside out backhand return that on the juice a lot of players don't have, especially the guys coming from singles, just because it's a shot that you never play in singles. Like you, you know, you don't on the juice side, you don't ever hit an inside out backhand return kind of aimed towards halfway up the singles line. Um, you know, so it's just and and and in terms of what we do now, both of them are working the returns in in the close season, and again, it's just adding it's keeping doing the things that you do well, keeping doing those things, and it's it's adding extra bits as well.

SPEAKER_00

How many guys have a top spin lob return?

SPEAKER_02

Um Harry I coached two of them. Harry has a great top spin lob return. Um Luke has it as well. Um I'd say he loses it sneaky well, Lloyd uses it sneaky well off um second serves. He he kind of does the because his second his backhand return, especially, is a great return. But then he's kind of had started adding this like top spin lob kind of I don't know if I say top spin, he is top spin, but he's kind of like he's very good at just bunting it over the net guy. Um I'd say there's not many other than that. It's something you've really got to work on, and there's certain circumstances that like I know Luke has a as a kind of a sort of checklist of things that he's gonna use it in this situation, like you know, he's he's like, right, this is that this is in place, this is in place, this is in place, now I'm gonna use it, and he'll decide on that basis. Um there's but I'm surprised there's not more who use it, to be honest, especially on on second serves. Um first serves, it's tough. All that Harry has used it on first serves, I've seen him do it. Um, but um he's probably used it a little less this year than he did last year. I know last year at Wimbledon when we played Beleli Vavasori, he drove those two guys crazy with his top spin lob returns. Um because they get very, very, very close to the net. And he just they just couldn't get a handle on him either on returns or in the in the in the points. Um but then we've played them twice since then, and he's not used it as much. Um yeah, but um, you know, you you want to keep people guessing, but yeah, that there's there's not a whole lot of people who use it, and it needs working on, you know, again, it's because it's a shot again that you just you don't come out of six, you know, all these guys have played singles, you don't come out of singles having used it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's uh seems like the most difficult option for a lob return would be the top speed. Obviously, the chip is easier, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But again, it's like if if you've got certain things, you know, you've also got to have a good backhand and you've got to have good feel on it and that kind of thing. But and it needs training, you know. I remember when it was probably about probably not 18 months ago, probably 15 months ago, I think after US Open last year, that I said to Luke, right, we're gonna we're gonna add this in. And I remember he did it like he did it the first time after that was he might have used it once when I wasn't there, but I remember like they played him and Sander played Roger Vassalan and Santi Gonzalez. Um, and he'd used it a couple of times in practice that week. We played with John Piers and Jamie Murray in practice, and he he'd hit he'd won a couple of points with it, but never actually used it in a match. And then I think it was in the tie break against, or maybe in the game that they broke Roger Vass and Santi Gonzalez, and he and he threw one up, and it just was like just the other guys just didn't expect it. It just kind of it was the slowest clean winner you've ever seen. Um, and um, and then since then he's he has a phenomenal success rate with it though, like when he does it, like um like in Henry, like Henry's kind of like giving him it as his copyright now. Like when he does it, he's kind of like this classic Luke Johnson. Like, and um and it's it's funny to say that when he like you know he didn't have this shot like 16 months ago, you know, and now it's like kind of become his his trademark. But again, the thing is Will within this is why Luke is so dangerous, is that like what you're gonna do, because if he if if he he's doing it to stop people crowding the net, but if you if you don't crowd the net and you go like for example to his backhand, he's gonna absolutely club it. So you know, it's kind of like and then your other option is you go to his forehand, which is a ridiculous shot. So you you know, so it's just adding those things in, and kind of Henry is the same, you know. Henry's because he's lefty, it's not so feasible to do a topspin um backhand return, but certainly like the chip lob is something that he started using this year, and I actually didn't realize until I checked the data is his success rate this year on the chip lob is is very, very good. It's it's up there with the best in the world when he uses his chip lob in terms of points one.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, I imagine it's a bit more effective on that deuce, I guess.

The Off‑Season Plan And Training

SPEAKER_02

It's not so much like I mean, as well, I'm I'm so even I've made the mistake there of terming it a chip lob. I I don't like to call it a chip because the the chip is when you kind of come down the back of the ball and that kind of slows it down. So what we've been trying to do, and we're still trying to get, and as well with Luke's trying to use it on the forehand, that it's kind of like it's a push lob. It's kind of like a block, yeah. I know that like because we practiced a lot in um we practiced a lot in um in North Carolina uh before US Open, and we had a couple of guys who came in, and like um a lad who uh uh American like on Matt Kiger, who I think just broke top 100, uh, he came in and he he he was like hitting with us or practicing with us on those days when I was working a lot with um with Henry on that shot, and then Matt won a challenger a couple of weeks ago, and he sent Henry a message saying, Oh, Calvin, I'll be proud at those uh knuckleball lobs that I was using today. And it's kind of never thought about in those terms, but it kind of is like a knuckleball lob. You want to hit it flat, and I mean the best part, the player who does it the best. I mean, Jamie Murray used to have used to be brilliant at it, um like a flat lob, but Mate Pavich is also very good at it, and it's kind of like I said the the tip I've kind of been giving Henry is like you don't want the racket to go down on the contact, the racket has to go like you go up, like and punch it, like punch it up and over, and then get into the net. And it's it's not just the height, because it has no spin, it's not top spin height, it's the speed that it can get. You get the ball, even if it's a little bit lower than a than a standard chip lob, it goes over the opponent quicker so they don't have time to respond to it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, because it doesn't have that backspin on it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, you mentioned the off-season. What does the off-season look like for you? And then talk specifically about I guess your process for for Henry and for Luke for kind of preparing them. Um, how do you schedule an off-season plan for them?

SPEAKER_02

I mean, it's completely different because um Luke lives quite near me. Um, and so we'll do a lot of trading up in the north of England, which is where we are, and then we'll go down and do um a couple of weeks in London. We'll do it with a couple of the other British guys, and also Luke's gonna be playing with Jan Zelinsky next year. Um so Jan's gonna come over and do a week's training with us at the NTC in London. Um, so we'll do it's kind of I'm very hands-on with that. I've got some ideas on areas that I want Luke to work on and improve, ready for next season uh already. Um, so that's very much I'm you know very much involved day to day on that. Henry is a little different because Henry is in the States, um he's in North Carolina with his fiancee, Ellie. So he will do his preseason there. So what we did last year, and I think what I'll do this year in a in a different fashion is I'll basically I'll I'll call him up. Like we're gonna have a chat like later in the week or weekend and and talk about what areas we both want him to be better at. I mean, it's a difficult one because Henry's playing so such good level tennis at the end of the year, so it's not like right, this needs to be better, this needs to be better, but there are always things you want to improve. And then once we've had that discussion, I'll then kind of come up with a few drills and I'll send them over in the best way I can, um, in the best way of explaining them, and then he'll sort of organise his own training with those drills, and he's got some great guys with him down at University of North Carolina where he's he's gonna train at uh Trip Phillips um and his uh his team are very good um at sort of helping him out, and there's some good players there. I think they've got a couple more players there. I think um Mackin McDonald's actually living there now, so I think he's gonna go in and train a bit as well. Um so he'll play with a few college guys and a few singles guys, and um, you know, it it worked all right last year. Um, I didn't think that the first week of the year when they lost first round in Brisbane, but two weeks later when they won Australia, I thought, yeah, that preseason plan actually works all right.

Mixed Doubles At The US Open Revisited

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Um, so a couple more questions and then I'll let you hop off. Uh just kind of reflecting on the year for doubles overall. Um one of the big storylines, I guess, was the US Open mixed. And I know we've talked about it, you've talked about it a lot on your podcast. Uh, kind of looking back on it, do you feel like the um the result was good, bad, or to be announced for doubles?

SPEAKER_02

Um, it should have been great for doubles, um, but I think there's some bad actors who just won't accept anything with it. Um, and I think, you know, even straight away when um Vava and Sarah had won it, there were still people like the people who were commentating on it were going, oh, you know, but next year when these guys have practiced more, then this result will change. And you know, it was which is ridiculous. And then also this this idea, like the one the one that crapped me up the most will was when people were giving it like um yeah, but they play together all the time. Like, like what's all the time? That was funny. Yeah, there's only four tournaments that have mixed doubles. One of them, I know Henry and Olivia beat them first round in Australia. So what they've played, they've played three tournaments together in the last year, like that, and also as if they're forging some kind of mixed doubles training, like they're not, they just play the matches, they just know how to play doubles, they were the only doubles-only team in there, and they knew how to do it. And Vava and and Sarah just figured out and you know, they carried out their plan to perfection of how they were gonna do it.

SPEAKER_00

Even even still, I think they partnered together for the first time in 2024. Like they had been playing together like a year and a half, and by playing together, I mean they had played like six tournaments over the course of 12 months or something.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and and in mixed doubles, it's literally just the matches. There's no training going on for mixed doubles, you know. So, um, but um, I mean, like, you know, for example, I would say they've played together probably less than Christian Harrison and Daniel Collins, who I know um Christian Harrison's dad used to coach Daniel Collins, they've known each other for years, so I reckon they've played together a whole lot. Um, you know, but they they didn't win the tournament. So um, but um yeah, it's look, it it was justification, and it and it was probably the match I was most happy about this year that didn't involve any of my lads um when I was watching it. I was actually really tight watching the final. Um, you know, and I was really happy for them that they ended up winning. It I I I hope it's not something that we see more of, you know. It and and the more I've watched it, you know, because I know you've followed it, I've got a thread on Twitter of basically called Nobody Wants to Watch Doubles, uh, which is I don't know which player has said it, it's either Andy Roddick or Riley Apelka or one of the American singles guys has said it. Like no one wants to watch doubles, and it it's just a thread of stadiums this year full of people watching doubles. Um, and I haven't even added some towards the end of the year yet from Paris and Vienna and Turin, where all these tournaments, you know, like look, Turin was Turin, I'm gonna say, was probably the least full it was for the doubles, was probably 70%. And then coming towards the end, like 100%, Paris, everyone was wanting to watch China, everyone was wanting to watch doubles. It's tennis, people want to watch tennis, so you know, again, it it's this myth that bad actors say no one wants to watch doubles, and basically they're trying to convince people of a thing that's not actually the case. I mean, we played again, you know, I get that there are home players in there. I know that like when we played Nice and Roger Vassaline in Paris, that was packed, and that stadium is that it was on the second court, but that's a big court, and that people couldn't get into that court to watch that match. Now, what you know what what what's what's this about? No one wants to watch doubles.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't even like the fact that you have to put the caveat in there of like I get that it was the home players because exactly, exactly, it's the same, but it's sport, isn't it? Yeah, because I've had this. It's true in singles, though. If you go to 100%, if you go to Indian Wells, like I'll be on a doubles court with two Americans in on court like six, and then court five will have a singles match with two like European players that are a little bit lower ranked, there will be nobody on five in everyone. And I say this in Cincinnati. So the home crowd thing, like it's almost like we're having to prove ourselves over and over. Like, wait, so it has to be no people from the country that it's being taken place in. The stadium has to be totally full, it has to be no singles players, like no singles guys, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

That's another one that they'll go, Oh, yeah, but he's you know, he's playing like Berrini's playing there, though. That's why people like I remember in Madrid. I put like uh in Madrid, I put like um yeah, you know, the court that we played in Madrid was full, and I put it up there. I think somebody went, Yeah, but but Corda's playing, and like yeah, all due respect to Corda. Like, like is he a crowd puller in Madrid?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, like you know, it's so you could probably walk around the streets of Madrid and nobody's gonna see it.

SPEAKER_02

You know, but it's it's it's like you say, but again, and I find it that that and this is the case that when people don't watch doubles, it's when they don't watch anything. You know, there are some there are some tournaments that are just not people don't watch, you know. There's just not you know, you do wonder how are these tournaments stayed alive, and you know, even some of those like Miami is one, you know, there'll be courts in there'll be singles matches in Miami that there's just no one on the court for, just no one watching. Because it mainly because it's in the middle of nowhere and it's not in a tennis community, yeah.

2026 Partnerships And What’s Next

SPEAKER_00

Um so I want to move on to the last question. Um, partnership updates. So you mentioned Luke is gonna play with uh Jan Zelensky. Um, can you tell us are Henry and Harry sticking together? And then do you have any other partnership in the no Henry and Harry?

SPEAKER_02

There was never any real discussion that they um they would split. I mean, they're they're so close, they get on so well, and they've been so successful. There's absolutely no reason for them to split, and they're just great for each other as well. So um there's no um, you know, I I think that they'll probably continue for the foreseeable, very much the foreseeable future. Um I think yeah, there are some, you know, there's some other pairs, like I say, Luke. Um Luke and Sander Arends split. Um Luke is gonna play with Jan Zelinsky. Um Sander, I think, is gonna play with Romain Arniodo. Um Neil Skubsky, obviously, is gonna play with Christian Harrison. Um I don't know if there's many other big changes at the top. I know there's a few.

SPEAKER_00

I know Evan King is gonna play with John Piers.

SPEAKER_02

Evan King's gonna play with John Piers, that's what I heard, yeah. Um you know, there'll be some like guys in the in the sort of 20 to 40 range, I think, who are changing. I know I did know another one. Um what is it? I think JP Smith is gonna play with Pavlisek, if I'm not mistaken, or it might be Romboli.

SPEAKER_00

I remember seeing JP Smith's name, I don't remember who it was.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it might be Romboli. No, Romboli, sorry, is gonna play with Mello. And Matos is gonna play with Luz. Um, so a little sort of Brazilian change up there, and um and yeah, JP Smith gonna play with Pavlisek. Um I know there are a couple more players I got. I I'd heard that the Germans, Kraviats and Pruets are probably not gonna play as many tournaments this year. Um they're gonna sort of roll it down. I think they're not gonna play all the masters. Um you know, Granella Zebios almost never play that many tournaments. They may play more, I guess. Granelas was was injured for a lot of this season, maybe. That changes. So um, yeah, I mean I think at the the the you know, they're the sort of main ones in the top 30 range, though.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. So so it seems like most of the teams are sticking together, or we just don't know yet.

SPEAKER_02

I think they are sticking together, Will, just because I think we would have heard if they're not. You know, I know there was some sort of questions about Aravallo Pavich. I mean Pavic has his rule that he's gonna seem he's gonna break. He has his rule about two years with any partner, yeah. Um, which he's stuck with and been very successful with. But he's done his two years with Cello Aravallo now, and they they seem to be sticking together. Um so yeah, Lloyd and Jules obviously will stick together. Henry and Harry stick together, Granella Zebios will just stick together until they both retire, I would think. Yeah, probably it's Poetz are sticking, but I think um Poitz is gonna I think Poitz doesn't want to play so much, but I think Kevin might play a few extra tournaments um as well. Harrison King have obviously split, we talked about that. But I've had sorry sticking together, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00

All right, well, we'll see what 2026 has to offer. Calvin, thanks a ton for coming on again. Um, really impressive year for you and both of your players, and and best of luck next year.

SPEAKER_02

Thanks, Will. Cheers, mate.