Doubles Only Tennis Podcast

6 Lessons from 2025 with Jonathan Stokke

• Will Boucek • Episode 270

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0:00 | 45:34

Jonathan Stokke is a former D1 player at Duke who played doubles in the US Open in 2001 & 2002. He has over 100k Instagram followers, a growing YouTube channel, and a podcast. My episode with him from 2024 is still one of the most downloaded episodes of all time.

In this conversation, we share six lessons we learned in 2025 that will help you win more in 2026. We focus on poaching, timing, balance, smarter formations, technique, and more.

  • Timing for an effective poach
  • Net play as the highest ROI for club players
  • Poaching technique - balance and centered head position
  • When to poach based on score and patterns
  • Reps, discomfort, and burning through bad attempts
  • Australian and I-formation to force favorable matchups
  • Tennis coaching as a restaurant menu
  • The one thing Jonathan wants you to NOT do in 2026

I highly recommend checking out Jonathan's content as well as his doubles camps below.

Links:

Learn more about Jonathan & follow:

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Why Jonathan Is Back

SPEAKER_00

This is a conversation with a repeat podcast guest, someone who had the most downloaded episode back in 2024. And I wanted to have Jonathan Stokey back on because I always get great feedback when I do have him on the podcast. And I always learn a ton when I have conversations with him. Jonathan has over 100,000 Instagram followers, a growing YouTube channel, a podcast. He played doubles at the US Open a few decades ago. He also played Division I tennis at Duke. And he also does doubles camps around the country. So I highly recommend those, which I will link to in the show notes as well. And before we had this conversation, I asked Jonathan to come to the podcast with three different lessons that he learned in 2025. And then I also came with three lessons that I learned last year. So in this conversation, we're going to each share the things that we learned in 2025 and talk about how it can help you improve your game going forward into 2026. We focus a lot on net play and poaching. We both realize that kind of independently of each other, as we run more and more doubles camps and clinics and work with more club players, it is the one area that we feel like is a big opportunity for players to improve. And we try to focus more and more on that over time. We also talked about balance during the poach. We talked about uh timing. We also discussed technique, especially in regard to the serve. And then we talked about embracing discomfort and uh the improvement process. So this is a pretty wide-ranging conversation. But if you're trying to improve your game in 2026, Jonathan has some great tips, some great advice, and I always get great feedback when I have these conversations with him. So I know you're going to enjoy this one as well. So without further delay, enjoy this conversation with Jonathan Stokey. Hey everybody, welcome to the show. Today we have Jonathan Stokey on again. Jonathan, welcome back. Hey man, it's always a pleasure. I always love chatting with you. And for this year, I thought we would discuss kind of a review of 2025. So we're into 2026. Uh, we're recording this on January 6th, and I texted you the other day and said, I want to hear three things that you learned in 2025. So, what we're gonna do for this format is you're gonna share one, I'm gonna share one, you're gonna share one, I'm gonna share one, and we're gonna go through six different things that we learned from 2025. So uh go ahead and take it away with the first one.

Timing Is Everything On The Poach

SPEAKER_01

Okay, I'm gonna start off with the most important one. I'm not gonna save it for the end. Uh, we're starting right out with it. Okay. And for me, it's timing is everything. So when we're talking about the poach, which is what I always talk about, I've learned right now that it's all about timing. So a couple things. The timing of when we actually want to do it, what the situation is. So the score, what our opponents are doing, all that, which I'll get into. Also, there's just the timing of the movement itself. So I'm sure you found it your doubles camps. I found this at my doubles camps. I can get players to stand in the correct spot very quickly. I can teach them the movement pattern very quickly. And yet they're not going to be expert poachers 45 minutes into the camp. And why is that? Because their timing is just completely off. Usually they're too late. Every once in a while they're too early. Um, but I think that is the skill I've been focusing on the most lately. And it's the skill I'll be focusing most on my camps in 2026 is how can I articulate and give players the correct timing so that all the things they learn online, which are relatively simple to do at home, can actually be executed on a regular basis.

SPEAKER_00

That makes tons of sense. I think um, yeah, we might be sharing five things we learned because that was kind of one of mine, too. Um so uh one of my, I'll just jump into mine because it ties into all this. Uh it's more specific, but everyone moves too late when they're poaching, is what I've found. So you said usually it's too late. Um, I noticed this first watching matches, and it happens even at really high levels. Like I'll go and watch local D1 college matches here in Fort Worth at TCU. I was at um the ITA regionals or one of those tournaments uh a few months ago, and even those players are the majority of the time when they poach, they're moving too late. And what happens is they either get beat cross-court or they end up hitting some off-balance volley that doesn't get through the court quick enough, they're not able to angle it off, and they end up on defense when they were in an offensive position if they had moved earlier. So I noticed it watching matches, and then at my doubles camp in New York, I did this drill that I actually came up with between day one and day two. So this was a two-day doubles camp. But after day one, I was sitting there in the hotel lobby with my my buddy who was coaching it with me. We were actually having a beer talking about kind of what we saw reviewing day one, and I was like, why don't we just simulate the poach and they can get the timing? So I had the coach feed from the deuce court cross court to somebody at the baseline in the deuce court, and I said, You're not allowed to hit down the line, you're not allowed to lob. And then we had a net player on the same side as the coach, and I said, I want your eyes forward, watch their take back, and you move across. And the next day we did that drill, and almost everyone was still late, at least starting out. After about 15 minutes or so, they started to get the timing, but that helped them kind of start to simulate that. So I feel like everyone or most people are late, but then also, like you talked about the point score and all this other stuff matters a lot as well.

SPEAKER_01

So, what we do is we have those yellow lines, and I think my personal opinion, and given that it always depends on where the ball is, I get that. If you imagine uh a spot one yard from the center service line on the side that you are at the net. So if I'm in the deuce court in the middle of the box, it's probably like four feet away from me and three feet from the center service line. Also, maybe it's a foot or two from the net. So we put a little line down there, and I go, your right foot needs to be on that line when the opponent, the baseliner over there, is striking the ball. And you're also starting in the middle of the box. So the math you have to do in your head is I've got to get from this starting line to that line that's a yard from the center service line when they're striking the ball, right?

SPEAKER_00

So it's it's a yard to the right of the center service line or something. To the left, to the same side that you are on. Oh, I see.

The Drill That Fixes Late Poaches

SPEAKER_01

So it'd only be about four feet from you. It's not all the way across. It's you know, if I'm in the deuce court, it's a yard inside the deuce service box. Kind of tough. Hopefully, people listening can figure that one out, but it's a yard inside. So your right foot has to be there when they're striking the ball. So if you start in the correct position, which is in the middle of the box and slightly closer, you have less distance travel to get there, which is great, which means you can move later, which means your poach is going to be more effective. If you are farther back and closer to the single sideline, you're gonna have to leave really early. And people are gonna see that and people are gonna go down your line, right? So we just take video and we're like, hey, is your foot on that line when they strike the ball? And like I said, usually they're very, very late. And a lot of times, you know, we talk about J movement or diagonal movement. I obviously prefer forward first. I honestly don't care though, because if you can get to that spot on time, a lot of people have already made up their mind. And then, like you said, you're not hitting that defensive volley or even getting past cross-court, which I think is the worst case scenario. So you're just doing math backwards in your head. I am a taller player, I still have some level of athletic ability. I can leave pretty late. If you're a 65-year-old woman with two knee replacements, you're not going to be able to leave at the same time that I leave. You're gonna have to leave earlier. And if you go forward first, not a problem. But you do have to get to that spot at the same time that I do. It's just I can go later, so my disguise is better. But it's still, if you do the right movement and you get there at the right time, that is the key to poaching for me.

SPEAKER_00

When their right foot hits this line and the opponent's making contact, they're continuing to move kind of across past that. Is that right? So for me you want them stopping there.

SPEAKER_01

Hopefully, anyone listening to your podcast and go use this on YouTube too. Uh yeah. Well, okay, because I'm gonna be like gyrating here on the video so you can see it. Okay. For me, when I put my right foot on that line, my head is still centered. So if you were to hit the cross court ball and you were to hit it right at me, it's not like I'd be running across hitting a weird backhand. I'd be here and I could just stop. But my foot is open towards the cross court. So if you hit it cross court, I'm gonna be able to explode big time. So it's not like I'm running, it's just I get there, my foot plants, so it's open court, right? My head is balanced just in case you hit it at me, but I'm ready to move one way. If you go down my line, I'm balanced enough where I could stick my racket out, but I'm not gonna be able to push back in that direction because my foot is going for the poach. Right. So that's the other thing. And I I that's part of the reason why I think players just run across is because they are so late. So, like, I kind of get why they're running. Yeah, for me, I get there and I feel like I'm just standing in that spot and then I'm just seeing what your ball does. If you hit it right through the center window, it's easy. If you hit an insane angle, then I'm gonna have to run or dive. And if you hit the ball kind of at me, well, good thing I'm balanced, I can just kind of stand there and pop it.

SPEAKER_00

Mm-hmm. So, what about the point score? You mentioned that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so the the post I throw on Instagram every four weeks is for me, the three best times to poach are early in the match, because most people are going cross-court to start. Early in the uh point, so that's like return or plus one, because most people are going cross-court, and also when the score is very close, so five all deuce. I don't think many people are like, you know what? I want to be the hero and just go for the lowest percentage shot winner down the line off the return. I don't believe that. I also saw something today that said you can tell, I don't know how to phrase this in a kinder way. It was a rough Instagram post, but it's like if you make a generic statement and people want to respond with all the outliers, it shows you that they're not understanding generic statistics, right? So are there people who return down the line on the first return of a match? Absolutely. I'm just telling you, in my experience, when I chart it, it's like 85, 90% will go cross court with their first return. So I'm just playing the odds. And guess what? Go chat, go chart where all the plus ones go. Most plus ones are going cross. Now, as that point goes longer and longer, everyone's alarms are going off. The person at the net is going, oh man, my coach told me to poach. It's been three or four, they're working up the courage. Simultaneously, the baseliner is going, damn, that person hasn't poached yet. I'll bet you they're about to do something. So I can predict with probably 90% accuracy on a plus one where it's going to go. If you ask me where the fourth ground stroke in a rally is going to go, I've got no clue. So a lot of times I tell my players, like, if you waited two, three, four balls, why don't you just sit this one out and we'll try again on the next point? Because at this point, it's chaos. Um, and then obviously, like I said, when the score is close, players don't raise their levels. Usually the level drops. And that's true for all levels. So is someone gonna step up and blast an alley winner at five all deuce? Not very often. Most of the time, they're nervous, they don't want to mess it up, and they're gonna try a safe return, which means it's a great time for you to poach.

SPEAKER_00

Uh, how do you think about moving on like lower risk points? So, something I've been big on this past year, maybe this will substitute my my uh other one that you stole. Everyone's moving too late when they're poaching. Um, I've been big on taking some of these risks if you're uncomfortable with them. So, like if you're just starting to learn how to poach, like do it up 30 love or up 40-15, or if you're up a break in the set or earlier in the set, when it's like a little bit less pressure uh of a point until you get comfortable with it and it becomes kind of a part of your game identity. How do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01

I'm gonna agree with you. I'm gonna agree like 50% on that. Okay. So the reason why it's not 100 is because, and I can tell you this is true for my Padel playing now, is everybody knows that if I get up 40 love, I'm gonna do something stupid. And if I get down 40 love, I'm gonna try something even dumber. Like, I that's my time to experiment. And so when the score is lopsided, let's say you said, Oh, why don't you poach at 40 love? Like it's a low risk point. Why don't you try something? I also think the returner is gonna try something. They're like, oh, this might be the time I can go down. Like this point doesn't matter. Like, I'll I will try to slap a winner. And so I do see that a lot where people are like, oh, cool, a low pressure point. Now I'll poach, but I also think the returners sometimes are like, yeah, this is low pressure point. Like, I'm just gonna mess around and try something. And so it's weird. I I liked your 30 love because I'm like, that's not a real pressure point, but it's also not so out of whack that I think the returner is gonna do something silly. I think there's probably a sweet spot in there, maybe up 30, 15, maybe up 30 love. But if it was 40 love, I actually tell my players don't really poach often on 40 love because I actually think that's what like the person over there could just be like, screw it. I'm just gonna go down Stokey's line to send a message. This game's probably over anyway. And I go, cool, I'm kind of expecting that, so I'm gonna stay at 40 love at deuce. And again, this would go back to what I've been saying. My full recommendation would be if you want to learn how to poach, do it when I said, because that's when the returns are most likely to go cross, and you're gonna get a positive feedback loop where you're like, hey, I either moved correctly on time, the ball went where I thought it would, I got the volley. I thought, cool, I'm a good poacher, but that does take a fair amount of courage as well.

Net Play As The Biggest Opportunity

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, 100%. Um, so I'm gonna do my second one here. Uh, this is kind of related. Uh, what I've found this past year is the net is probably the biggest opportunity for most club level doubles players to improve. And you talked about how this is something you're focusing more and more on in your camps. And I feel like we're kind of going down the same path as we explore this independently. But the volleys are just simpler strokes. So, like if I'm going to teach someone how to hit a top spin forehand for the first time, like it's gonna be pretty freaking hard. But if I want to teach them how to angle their volleys, like I could probably do that in about 30 minutes, right? Um, so it's just a simpler stroke, there's less room for error, and you can still mishit it and be okay a lot of the time if you're in the right position, which I love. Uh and then also the opportunity at the net versus the baseline is your positioning and movement, to me, they matter more at the net than they do at the baseline. So if I shift two steps to my right at the net, the opponent's going to notice that. If I shift two steps to my right at the baseline, the opponent probably won't do anything differently, right? So that matters a lot more. And then often also you don't even have to touch the ball to affect the play at the net, whereas at the baseline, you you typically do. So I feel like for most club players, if you're looking for the biggest opportunity for yourself to improve in 2026, it's going to be your net game for the majority of them.

SPEAKER_01

Couldn't agree more. And one of the ways like I would reverse that to even drive that point home more is like it's a little easier with singles, but sometimes I say, okay, let's play a baseline game, or in doubles, it would be one up, one back. Let's just feed it in and play the point. And you can only hit a winner from behind the baseline. And really quickly, players are gonna go, this game sucks. Like, you can how do you do it? And you go, Yeah, exactly. You can't do it. So why are you trying to do stuff from behind the baseline? You want to hit a winner, you're gonna have to be inside the service box or at least three-quarter court with a short ball. So a thousand percent, that's where you can do all the damage. And I know there are a lot of players out there who don't have confidence in their volleys, and maybe rightfully so. Maybe they have technique that's all jacked up and they do struggle with it. The beauty of the net is if you put yourself in the right spot and just have a little bit of courage, you're still probably gonna win more than half your points, even though you can't volley. They're gonna miss shots on the other side, you're gonna shank some balls in every once shooting star, you're actually gonna hit a beautiful volley. It's such a winning play that even poor volleys do well. And I think that's what some club players misunderstand is like they think that they're the one, well, my volleys aren't good, so that doesn't apply to me. It still applies even if you don't have good volleys.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. One of my most popular Instagram posts recently was this uh, I think it was why you should poach even if your volleys stink. And I went through like the math and said, like, all right, if you poach 20 times, then six times this will happen, three times this will happen, and it ends up like they win 60 or 70 percent of the points or something. Um, whereas they when they actually touch the ball, like they miss half their volleys, but they still win the majority of the points. There's so many, I feel like we just continue to try to find new ways to teach the same thing over and over, right?

SPEAKER_01

Like, yeah, I mean that's the fun part of coaching, right? It's the messaging. I mean, the the game is not changing a ton. So it's how do I convince that player to do these things? And then I have to use different words and a different message and a different tone for that player, and I have to show this player, and I have to let that player fail for six months until they're not stubborn, and then they'll come back. Everyone's different, but that's why coaching's fun. That's the puzzle.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, 100%. Um, so what's your second one?

SPEAKER_01

Uh okay, so the first one I said timing is everything. So then I should have reworded that because I still have two more, right? So it can't be everything if I have two more. Um, the second one I have is balance. So when I'm when I'm at these camps, I'm working primarily on, like I said, keeping that head centered without leaning one way or the other and having all my weight on one leg. So one of the things that will trigger me the most, and I really try hard not to like start shooting back comments on YouTube or Instagram, is someone says, Well, it's easy for you to cover the net because you're 6'2. That's true. It is objectively easier for me to cover the net at 6'2 than someone who's 5'6. Uh, that's an eight-inch advantage I have on them. Okay. So if I'm balanced, right? So the math I do, uh actually, I might give you the video to like link in the show notes. If I take, if I take my arm, shoulder, and I reach my hand out at 6'2, my wingspan's about six two, right? So from my shoulder to my hand is three feet. So if I just stand here without moving and reach out, that's three. I'm holding a racket, which is two feet and a quarter, but there's some overlap with my hand. Let's just say that's an extra two feet of each. So if I just stick my arm out like that, I'm covering five feet in one direction. And I'm covering five feet in the other direction. If I take one unathletic step in each direction, let's just say that's another three feet, right? I'm covering 16 feet without running, just taking a step in each direction. Right? The service box, last time I checked, is 13 and a half feet wide. So that means I can almost cover the whole service box with a step and just stretching my arm out. Now, if you were five, six, you're not going to cover 16 feet. You might only cover 12 or 13, but I don't see players covering that that much territory. And the reason is because they're always leaning, and somehow I don't understand how this is possible. They're always leaning the wrong way, right? So the ball goes through the middle, and I'm leaning towards the line, and I can't really take a step or reach out. And so I can't get that ball that if I was just balanced, I could easily get after I see it, right? So it's trying to teach people, and part of that is positioning, part of it is just understanding where the ball is going to go. But I find so many people are just moving around and getting themselves off balance like they're on roller skates. And instead of covering the whole service box just with a step, they're covering like half of that because they're off balance.

SPEAKER_00

Uh, two things. We I can get you video of Shuko Aoyama. That's who I would recommend you send to these people. She's like 5'1 and one of the best net players in the world. Um and Secondly, you mentioned that they're always leaning the wrong way. So it sounds like you're talking about this is typically at the net. Yes. Does that mean they're typically leaning kind of towards the doubles alley and the ball goes through the middle most of the time?

SPEAKER_01

For sure. I mean, that that's the most common, right? Like because most balls are going cross and everyone just assumes that this is the time they'll go line, which you're almost never correct. And so you kind of have all that weight on your left leg and on your left shoulder. And then the ball will actually pass on your side of the net. Like it lands cross court, but it's probably passing one or two feet to your side of the center net strap. And you're not even in play for that, probably because you're already too far to the alley anyway, but you have all your weight moving towards the alley. When I don't, even if you want to position yourself in a terrible spot, if you were standing too close to the alley, but your head was perfectly centered, I'm like, I actually think you'll still get that because you'll just see the ball and instinctively go, Oh, it's only one step away. Like I'll just go. When you're off balance, that's when people shut down because the second they want to move, their body's like, I can't move that way. And so they just don't, they don't even move for it. And it just becomes a ball they just assume is out of their reach. So yeah, that's that's one thing that I'm I'm really big on this year, is I I get that one a lot is like, oh, well, it's easy for Rajiv to cover the net because he's 6'4. Yes, it is eight inches easier for him, which is it matters, but that's not why he's getting the ball that's four feet away from him. He's getting that because he's in good position, he's balanced. And the reason why you at five five are not getting that ball is because you're standing too close in line to begin with. You're now moving to the alley for no reason, and the ball's going four feet away from you with no ability to get that ball.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Some of some of the comments on social media are are hilarious. Like there's there, I'll like have one where there's a point, like our long rally where Paulini hits a really good shot or something, and there'll be like four comments on like, well, they obviously should have hit gone down the line on that one. It's like, okay, so we're redirecting a down-the-line ball off of uh Helena Ostapinko forehand that lands five feet inside the baseline. Like, good luck with that.

Balance Beats Reach At The Net

SPEAKER_01

And again, like what with everything we're talking about, we're talking about like patterns and probability and statistics. It's like, yeah, I want you to poach at these times, I want you to be balanced at these times. It works, I don't know, 55-60% of the time, like 40%. I'm wrong, right? But like right, I'm gonna be more right than if I just hug my alley the whole time, or if I'm off balance, or like you said, that player could burn someone down the line with a low percentage shot. Like we have to start understanding that you're gonna lose no matter what strategy you use. It's losing the right way and losing the minimal amount. And the way you do that is by doing the correct things.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I feel like a lot of people just kind of misunderstand how small the margins are, too. Like in the the Fedder speech and the the info that Craig O'Shaughnessy has put out there over the last decade about you know, the the number one player ends up winning 55% of their points. It's like, you know, that means you're winning that 11 pointer 11 to 9. Like that's really close. Um, so people obviously just don't like to lose points in a certain way, so they kind of default to that.

SPEAKER_01

But um I want to move on to can I give you one random thing real quickly?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01

Maybe this is like so left field too. So, like you said, I'm in Salt Lake and uh I joined an indoor golf simulator. Okay. And so my two-month project is I'm just trying to like swing speed is actually directly correlated to how good you are at golf. Like the farther you hit it, the better you usually are, right? Putting actually doesn't, swing speed does. So my whole winter plan is I've got these training sticks and I'm going to the gym and I'm just showing up at this driving range and I'm just swinging like out of my shoes. Like my wife is laughing so hard at me. She's a a former golf coach and she's like, What are you doing? You look silly. But what I've been doing is I've been watching YouTube videos from all these different instructors on how do you increase your swing speed? What do you do with your body? And I'm I'm hearing tips from experts, and the similar tips are the ones that I'm using. And even if they seem so counter to what I feel like my normal swing is, I've just decided I'm gonna blindly trust it. Here, here's every expert across the board saying you have to do this one thing. And I tried it and I went, that felt horrible. And I said, I'm just gonna do it. Because clearly it must be right. If everybody who has any success is saying the same thing, I'm just gonna do it. And already through a week and a half, my swing speed's up like eight miles an hour, which I'm like so pumped about, right? And it's getting more and more comfortable. And I feel like that's what I want doubles players to do, is it's like we tell them something, every quality coach and quality player is gonna be like, hey, you need to cover the middle more and you need to stand in the middle more and poach at these times. And I understand it feels uncomfortable, but if almost every expert or qualified coach is saying the same thing, then there's a really good chance it applies to you. And if you can just break through that this might not be the right thing for me and blindly trust it, the odds are it's gonna work out very, very well for you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so that that's a perfect transition to my next one. This one uh is something I already knew, but it was just I guess re-established, or I feel like it's more true uh at the end of 2025 than I thought at the beginning. And that is people hate feeling uncomfortable. Like people absolutely hate feeling uncomfortable. So one of the big things I've done this year when I've given people advice, and I did this even last night with um um there's a couple of club players who I have a monthly call with in California, and I told them they're they're struggling with some of these concepts, right? Like poaching uh on a regular basis and covering the line a bit too much. So I told them, look, I want you to go schedule a practice set and don't tell your opponents you're doing this, but I want you all to poach on every single first serve and just see what happens. And I've created more and more of those challenges throughout the year just to it because when you tell someone, hey, I want you to practice poaching more, they'll go out and play their practice set and try poaching three times, you know? And I don't want the goal of your practice set to be to win the practice set. I want you to learn a new skill and you have to kind of break through that discomfort or like you said in your golf example, kind of lean into the uh discomfort or just totally ignore it and trust it anyways, um, to be able to do that. So I feel like people just have to get over the fact that they're going to be uncomfortable if they're going to improve.

SPEAKER_01

I I like just pretending it's a science, even though I know it's a little bit of an art. So, like you said, yeah, if you poach three times a match, you're gonna be a master poacher in 25 years. Congrats. That's amazing. Like, can't wait to see you when you get there. Like, make sure you message me on Instagram and tell me you made it, right? So it's gonna take a ton of reps. And then if you think about it more clearly, you go, let's say, let's just say it's gonna take you a thousand reps to master the timing. Okay. How many of those reps are gonna be disgusting? Where you literally would watch it back on video a year from now and be like, that's so embarrassing. I left so early, or I did X, Y, or Z. It's gonna be a fair amount. Let's just say it's 400 and probably gonna be 400 of the first 600 because you're struggling and learning, right? And so you go, okay, you you poached in the match and it was a disaster, train wreck. Great, I got rid of one of those 400. Let's just keep can I get rid of them faster? How fast can I get through the 400 bad ones before I get to the 400 mediocre and then the 200 elite, and then it's like I don't even know how to mess it up. So I think players here, like, oh yeah, it takes reps, but they're assuming that somehow these reps are going to be quality. Where I would argue in the beginning, like my first driving range session here, I was shanking it like up, almost missing the screen that I was hitting at because I was swinging so fast, and I'm like, okay, well, I'm trying something new. So, like, of course it it's crap. Like, let's just wait a week and see. And it's so it got better. And I I promise you, poaching or positioning or whatever the shot is in doubles that you're working on will get better, but you got to plow through those crummy reps like as fast as you can.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's a great way to look at it. Uh, what is your third one?

SPEAKER_01

Third one. Uh, it's this is my new quest for 2026. That is using different formations. I I just I still do not understand. I don't know if you're good at poker. I don't play cards at all. But if I found out you were an amazing poker player and we're about to go play cards for money, and I I had the choice to play you in poker or to play you in Jin Rummy, which by the way, I also don't know how to play right now. I'd be like, well, I'll play Jin Rummy because I know Will's already great at poker. Like, I'll play, even though we both don't know what we're doing, like at least it's something new, right? And if I'm playing you and we all play standard formation and you're just a better doubles team than me, it would be nice if I played Australian. And on top of that, I even know the rules. So, hey, when you play me, we're not playing your game. Well, we're gonna play my game. Like, I know how to play these, I know the rules, I know the ins and outs, and it's something different for you. And that could be a great way to level the playing field, get me playing to my strengths and your weaknesses. I'm sure you see the same thing, but like if I look at my club, I don't know that I've ever seen Australian being played at my club. Certainly never I. And I understand some people, you know, don't want to crouch down or can't crouch down. I get that. But why are we not playing Australian some? Why are we not playing two back sum on returns? Like do some interesting things where people have to adjust to you. That's a great place to be. And so that's something I'm definitely going to be pushing more for in 2026.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I I totally agree. I think um it's yeah, I think it kind of goes back to that comfort thing. Um, and I I helped coach a high school team here that I've started to get to do this over the last several years. Um, so it's been a lot of fun trying to figure out how to teach them how to use. They actually do use uh eye formation because they're they're able to get into that position because they're high school kids. Um, but it's been really fun to try to teach them because there's been a lot of things that like have worked and haven't worked. So are you trying to convince more of your players to use Australian, or are you trying to kind of figure out how to I don't know, to talk more a little bit more about it?

Probability, Nerves, And Smart Poaching

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, like one simple example would be like what we had at Duke. So we had a guy with a stretch fracture in his right hand one year. So he's only chipping four hands. Okay. So on the deuce court, when he was the server, we clearly want him to be in the ad court. Like he did not serve in volley, he was not a great vollier. It's amazing that he did well in doubles. So he's in the deuce court, and we're like, okay, we're either going to play regular formation and the net player will poach every single time. So the net player will now be on the right, and my guy will be hitting backhands in the ad court. We will go I formation and have the net player go right every time and have the server go left, so he's hitting backhands, or we'll just go Ozzy to start, and then my server will just go get backhands. And you would think that's so predictable and so obvious. And yet somehow, no, like people were confused. They would still head to the net player sometimes. Our guy is still hitting backhands, which was his strength, and he had a great backhand. And so, yeah, let's use formations, or you could just play standard formation and not poach and just let him hit slice four hands all match. Like, how's that gonna work out? So you've got a player at home and you're like, Man, she she plays the ad court because she's a great returner over there. Well, guess what? When she's serving, why don't we just get it so she's always in the ad court then? Then she's then she's hitting the ground strokes that she wants, or if you have a net player who prefers something and you're a baseliner who can play from either side, oh, but the the player likes their forehand volley in the middle. Well, let's always get that net player on the deuce and let's find different formations so it looks different in the beginning, and then once the serves in play, we can either poach or slide or do whatever it is. It's just we we don't really do that that much. And I don't think people really go down that rabbit hole, but it's just like low-hanging fruit. It's such an easy way to get you into your strengths and automatically get them uncomfortable. I mean, what do you what do you think the facial expressions are of someone if you're playing standard formation and you walk up on the seventh point and you're just an Aussie right away? Like I promise you, you will visually see something in their face. Like, what what is this? What happened? That's already a win for you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_01

You've already got them freaking out.

SPEAKER_00

I I've heard some people say that their opponents have told them like it's an illegal formation or something. I love that. Even uh I remember when I had Gigi Fernandez on the podcast a long time ago, she said she actually had a team one time play two back serving and they stood on the same side. So I'd be serving to the Deuce court and you would be to my right because maybe I'm like an ad court returner and we both love the baseline. Um, and that might just apply to like second serves, but uh yeah. I mean, regardless, the point of this is just create matchups that work in your favor, you know, and that formations are just a logical way to do that.

SPEAKER_01

Yep, that's that's my that's my new quest. It's just to get people, I mean, it's it's really no different. And again, just think of it. If you go into a game with someone and you're playing a game that you know the rules to and they don't, you have an advantage, yeah. Already, whether you're great at that game or not. So why not come out of what if you only played Australian? I'm not suggesting that, but like you're gonna get really good at what those down the line shots are and when you should lob and how you cover and how you move with your partner. And the other team, that's gonna be the that's could probably gonna be the only time they do it their entire league season. Like advantage you guys just for being smart enough to do it.

SPEAKER_00

Right. I mean, it's a competitive advantage. So like I would encourage people to similar to the poaching example earlier, like go out, play a practice set or practice match, and use only Australian the entire time. Like that's the fastest way to learn how to how to do it. Um, all right, I'm gonna move on to my last one here. Uh so I went to a uh helped run a doubles camp in Atlanta with uh Peter Freeman, who runs Tennis Con. And he taught me this on day two. So we had eight, um, there were three, five, four. And we were analyzing all of their serves. And this is something that I've done with my my high school group. Um, the other guy who coaches with me focuses more on serve technique than I do. And he's constantly trying to get more of our players using the continental grip on their serve. And Peter went through each of the eight players' serves, and he actually gave them the choice. And I loved this. And he was like, Look, do you want to spend the time to learn the continental grip on your serve, or do you want to master this pancake grip flat serve, which will be fine all the way up to 4-0, maybe 4-5 level? And you can place it around the box and it'll stay low through the court. And it's something that makes sense, but I just never really thought about. Um, I always just assumed people had to have, I guess, the continental grip on the serve or that it needs to be taught that way. And and he really helped, I guess, give me the freedom as a coach to be like, look, I don't really care that much about your grip or your technique if like that's not the thing you want to focus on.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I did um, I don't know if I I actually forgot I had it. I was gonna release it at some point, but kind of a hot takes podcast with uh Connor Casey. And one of my hot takes was that you should have like a coach's menu. So, like when you said that, that's the first thing that popped into my head. So I go, Oh, here's the menu of all the things that you can buy at the Stokey tennis lesson. You want a beautiful slice serve out wide with a continental grip? Cool. That that takes 12 months and it takes this many serves, and it's like it's a really expensive item. It's a really it's a very luxurious item to have too. Or you can have the pancake serve and you can have this, it's much cheaper. It only takes 500 reps, and you can do it right away, and you can have it in a month. Just order what you want off the menu. It doesn't your tennis game. I don't, it's fine with me. But like you get to order whatever you want, and you want something very valuable, you know why it's valuable? Because it's hard to get, it's hard to it's hard to have that serve. And and so there's plenty of players. I like that from Peter, and I it is freeing as a coach to just be like, here are the options, here's the path. It's your tennis game. If you're happy having only a flat serve that has these limitations but these strengths, knock yourself out. That's awesome. And if you want to change your mind in the future, you can, you just wasted some time, or if you want to go through the painstaking process of learning that continental grip, it's also great. It's just we're gonna suck for a while, but we'll be better in the long run.

Reps, Discomfort, And Faster Learning

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I love that menu analogy. And uh one of the other things that um that Peter talked about, um, because we had like a longer discussion about it afterwards, and it it's kind of uh this kind of goes back to some of the the Instagram comments you'll see. Typically it's like from other coaches. Um, but it's an issue I think that tennis maybe has a little bit, and that um he talked about how pickleball just doesn't have this problem yet, but a lot of tennis is so obsessed, and tennis coaching is so obsessed with technique that a lot of like club players spend tons of money and time on like private lessons trying to master this continental serve, and they can't even like throw a tennis ball over the net from the baseline like without a racket. So, like, how are they supposed to get a proper service motion? Um, so if we focus less on technique, then they might have more fun. And a lot of those people end up quitting tennis because they're just they think they're not good at it, right? But if somebody went to them and said, Hey, you're fine with your forehand grip on your serve, let's just keep doing that, and you'll improve your net game, you'll improve your baseline game, and you can still get to 4-0 tennis and be a really good player. We might lose a few less tennis players if we weren't so obsessed with this sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely agree. There are strengths and weaknesses to everybody's journey. Like for me, I played baseball. So when I started playing tennis when I was 10 and a half, I had two backhands. So I had my right hand on top for a forehand and like this. And I take the right, if anyone's seen me play, it's the grossest thing ever. I take my racket straight down because I was like, oh, low to high. Well, wouldn't you want to go low right away? And I didn't have any coaches early on that fixed it. But the beauty of it was is I would just went out and I just played. So I'm like, oh, if I get to the ball and I make balls, I win. Oh my God. And I can't see my ugly swing, so who cares? Like, I don't know. It feels different than it looks. Like it looks way worse than it feels. And so the downside was my technique was suboptimal and there were some challenges. The plus side, like you said, is I just got to go out and play and enjoy myself and learn the strategy. And I feel like a lot of videos on YouTube are tailored to technique. That's what people love. Oh, I want this Alcaraz forehand and all that, but it's not a forehand contest. You know, the person with the best forehand is not necessarily the best player in the world. That's not how the world rankings go or the best server. You know, Riley Opelka is not number one in the world. Okay. Well, it's not a stroke contest, it's a tennis contest. And a lot of that is that mental side. And so could not agree with you more. I feel like technique is something that can weigh heavy on your mind and you can become a rabbit hole. And I don't feel like the rewards are as strong as footwork and just knowing what you're doing out there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it kind of goes back to your menu analogy. Like a lot of it's just about time. Um, you know, as I sent out in my newsletter a few weeks ago, like, you know, there's several different ways you can improve in 2026. And one of them is just spending more time on the court, right? If you play more tennis, you're going to get better. But people have families and jobs and all this other stuff. And like if you want that slice do continental grip serve, like you got to spend a lot of time on it. And that time's got to come from somewhere. So it's, it's um, yeah, you can't you can't have it all, especially as kind of a club level player.

SPEAKER_01

One of my one of my favorite things I I read uh lately, I love these like little catchy quotes. And one of the person said, if a shortcut worked, it wouldn't be called a shortcut, it would just be the way. So, like, you're looking for this like, oh, how do I learn how to poach in a week instead of six months? Well, if there was a way, guess what? You and I would be teaching it right now. Like, I'm not really interested in watching you fail at poaching for five and a half months before you get it. It takes what it takes, and sometimes crazy. Athletes can do it 5% faster. But I love that quote because, like, to me, it's the reality. Like, if there was a faster, more efficient way to do it with the way information gets spread, we would all be doing it now. And since it's not that way, you better buckle up for the long haul.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I feel like I try to I try to think about like faster ways to not necessarily get better at poaching, but just to win tennis matches, right? Um, so it might be like, look, I I don't have to um go through like six months of lessons to teach you where to stand in Australian formation, right? Like we can just do that right now and you can stand in a different place, and it might help you win the match tomorrow, you know. But if you're gonna play just like everyone else, then you're gonna have to be a better tennis player, like if you're playing the same game, like you talked about earlier. So that's why I love like the positioning and the movement and all that stuff, because it it works against players who would beat you pretty handily in singles, you know. I I know because I've had this experience, I'm sure you have too. Like you can outsmart people who are more athletic, who hit a bigger ball, who have faster serves, all this different stuff. Um, and that part for me is what's so much fun. Um, Jonathan, this was a lot of fun. Uh any last kind of closing thoughts before we hop off here?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I do I have one random thing, I like another topic I'd like to just get out there because I posted it in the new year. Another thing I'm big on is I'd like anyone listening to the podcast to think of one habit or action they're taking in their doubles game that they know actually is not helping them. In fact, it's actively hurting them in their quest. And I just want them to stop doing that. You don't have to learn how to poach, you don't have to learn all my things. Just pick one habit. Oh, you like to complain the entire match about how the other team lobs. Do you think that's gonna help you play better or somehow help you win? No, cool. Just stop doing that. Replace it with anything else you want. I don't care. I'm not even giving you the positive action. Just pick a negative thing that you do and just eliminate it, and you have immediately improved in your game. So that to me is like the lowest hanging possible fruit for improvement. I I wrote an email the other day, like the laziest way to get better. Don't add anything yet. Just take something you do that you think is inefficient, that you know, and just stop taking that action and you have instantly upgraded.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I love it. Yeah, I read that email, it was a really good one. It kind of inspired my uh 2026 email as well. I love it. So so I appreciate that. Uh, last thing, you should read golf is not a game of perfect. Have you read that one? Uh I've read parts of it. Okay, okay. Danielle Collins actually recommended it to me a few years ago, and I just read it and thought, I mean, I thought it was a great game or a great book for for golf, obviously, but even for tennis players, I feel like it's a it's a great book. Um there's so much sports like if you're working on your golf game, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

There's so much sports psychology and in golf that carries over to tennis. So if you start reading sports, like I know all these NBA guys read the inner game of tennis. Like, yeah, there's so much crossover between sports and you get it from a different way. Um, yeah, I'll go back and read more of that because I've read parts and obviously I know it's great. And it's kind of like the golf Bible as well.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I loved that one. Awesome. Jonathan, this was a ton of fun. We will do it again soon. Love it, man. Thanks for having me on.