Doubles Only Tennis Podcast

Reactions to the ATP Plans to Cut Doubles with Dan Kiernan

• Will Boucek • Episode 290

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I talk with Dan Kiernan from Wimbledon about the proposed ATP doubles changes for 2028 and why doubles players feel blindsided by the messaging. We focus on transparency, intent, and respect, and what doubles players can realistically do next if leadership will not share clear facts.

You'll also hear specific names who we believe may be pushing this agenda forward.

  • Initial reactions from doubles players and coaches at Wimbledon
  • Why “doubles isn’t sustainable” needs real definitions and data
  • How ticket sales, streaming, sponsorship, and event value get misunderstood
  • Respect as the foundation for any doubles growth plan
  • Why intent matters
  • How ATP governance differs from the WTA approach to player input
  • What “closing the pathway” could mean for doubles specialists
  • Likelihood the 2028 plan moves forward and why a fight is coming
  • Practical advice for players: awareness, answers, and sticking together
  • Why infighting helps leadership and weakens player leverage on revenue

This is a super informative conversation that I hope helps you better understand all the layers to this situation.

Learn more about Dan & follow:

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Why This Wimbledon Conversation Matters

SPEAKER_01

This is a conversation with Dan Kiernan. Dan is the coach of WTA Doubles player Gabby Dobrowski, ATP doubles player Andre Gorensen. He is the founder of Soto Tennis Academy, and he also hosts his own podcast, Control the Controllables, which I highly recommend. And Dan has been on the podcast several times at this point. And I wanted to have him on to get an update on uh what's going on at Wimbledon in terms of this massive announcement uh about potential changes to the ATP doubles tour. Uh Dan is on the grounds at Wimbledon uh coaching Gabby Dobrowski, who's still in the draw. And he stayed late to do this recording, which I really appreciate. He was there until about 10 p.m. on the call with me. Uh and we talked a lot about this announcement, uh, player reactions, coaches' reactions, um, what his understanding is of how it all went down and how it was communicated to the players. Um, we talk a lot about respect as well. Uh, I don't touch on marketing a whole lot here because I've talked about that so, so much. And at the end of the day, I think if the ATP leadership doesn't respect doubles, then it doesn't matter if we have the perfect marketing plan. Um, it's not going to work. They need to respect doubles first. So we talk a lot about that. Uh, Dan mentions intention a lot, he he talks a lot about intent and wants to know what is the intention of the ATP. And um, transparency is something that came up in the players' uh social media post, um, or actually lack of transparency, uh, because we don't know what the intention is. Is the intention to cut doubles over the next 10 years? Is it to cut the the pathway for double specialists? Um, they've not made that clear. So these uh changes, we are unsure um what the intent behind them is. So we talk a lot about that. Um I also asked Dan how likely he thinks this is to actually happen. It's an announcement for 2028, which is a year and a half away. So how likely is this to actually happen uh in 2028? Uh, and then what are the players doing? What can they do, and what advice he has for the doubles players as well? Um, I actually had a lot more questions for Dan, but this ran pretty long because Dan has such a deep understanding of this and um really doesn't like to uh share kind of surface level answers. He he goes deep into all of the questions that I have, which I love. Um so I think you're going to get a better understanding of the situation for sure, and definitely an understanding of the double's perspective. Um, so without further delay, enjoy uh this conversation from Wimbledon. Uh at least Dan was at Wimbledon with Dan Kiernan. Hey everyone, welcome to the show. Today we have Dan Kiernan back on. Dan, welcome back. Thanks, Will.

SPEAKER_00

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I know uh you are super busy at Wimbledon. Um Gabby is still in the draw uh and not playing tomorrow, it sounds like, but maybe in a couple of days' time. Uh, and then you're recording your own podcast there, so I appreciate your time. Um I wanted to, you know, we we chatted over uh WhatsApp about the doubles announcement or potential announcements. I don't know if anything's set in stone yet. Um and then, of course, the other day I talked with Ben Rothenberg, which um I wish I had waited a few days to to have that conversation because in retrospect, I I didn't love the way the conversation went. Um, but now I want to have somebody on who is of a different perspective, um, probably more in alignment with me, uh, who is kind of backing the doubles players a bit more. So I wanted to start by asking what is kind of the feeling on the ground among yourself, players, coaches, people you've talked to.

The Shock And Anger On Site

SPEAKER_00

Um I think there's I guess the starting point for me, maybe if you'd spoken, spoken to me a couple of days ago, I would have come on here. Everyone's assholes, they're you know, like there's like uh it I think it's natural, it's an it's a natural human reaction of like, show me some goddamn respect, you know? Like it's that that's the sort of I think that was that's kind of a quite a bit of the feeling at first, you know, and it it's just like the stages of grief, right? Like anger is one of those stages, and then you're moving and it's and it's actually not not so much for for me on so much of it for me, and I I can't really speak for everyone else. Obviously, there is lots of conversations happening, you know, there's natural. Like I I wasn't at the meeting that happened, there was a meeting that happened. Um, it was players only. I got told. I know there was a couple of coaches, but well-respected coaches, you know, and I'm I'm happy that they were there, you know, good, good, good guys who are kind of got skin in the game and have done for many years. But almost immediately after Andre Alner Gorenson and I am working with, he came out and he kind of gave me a little bit of detail, but he was he was then had to head off somewhere. And then I had a bit of a chat with with Vava, Vava Sori and with Aravello. And there was it was it was this kind of coming together of almost we've all received real like shocking traumatic news. That was the original, that was the original moment, which which is probably the starting point for me. There's there's lots of we where these conversations I think are quite difficult, and I've had a couple on my podcast, is almost where what we address first and and and how things can also be addressed in an intelligent and open all lenses way, because I also don't want to just be the doubles guy who is like you know, like I I don't think that helps either. You know, I I I I want to be the tennis guy who loves tennis and who and probably one of the big things that attracts me to doubles, and we've just talked about it a bit off air there. Like, I love teams, I love like and and I actually look at us as a we're a we're a team ourselves, and we're a community, you know, we're all traveling 35 weeks a year away from our families, you know, like we're all part of the traveling circus, you know, and I love that that that this is a community as well. Yes, the people are fighting for their own bit of the pie, and people are fighting to win tennis tournaments, but we all love this sport, right? We all love this sport of of tennis, and it's and it's that's I guess certainly one of my one of my big thoughts, uh always has been. Why, why can't why aren't we growing this together? Why aren't we trying to make this the greatest sport in the world on all levels? You know, why why aren't we doing that? So I think that initial almost betrayal feeling is is something that's there of like, why are we being why why is everyone being betrayed here? Why why are we saying these horrible things about each other? You know, why why are we in fighting? You know, shoot, we're in the wrong, that's the wrong fight. Because in my mind, we are a team, we are a community, you know, we are an industry, you know, and there's many, many layers to that industry. And I also believe it's one of the hardest industries industries and sports in the world when you do talk about the dedication that goes into it, you know, like I'm whatever, it's it's this is normal. I'm at 10 o'clock, I haven't left sight yet. You know, that's not in I'm not even and if they were playing tomorrow, be then up till 2 a.m. scouting and going through all of those things because we love it and we're passionate about it. So why is it that whether there's one person on a court or there's two people on a court or four people on a court, why why are we why have we got this in fighting? So that's I think there's you then start to hear, I guess, propaganda, which is which is what a lot of this is about. It's a political thing, right? I almost feel like we're like part of some political party election that's going on, and you don't quite know what to believe, but it doesn't take much to just dabble in a bit of information and then you know, like we heard Alex Demanuer yesterday, he doesn't know, and why should he know? But he's just been shown that's the numbers don't work, that's what he's been told, and you know, we can I'm sure we'll get into that in a minute. But what what what do you mean the numbers don't work? Nobody and that's probably the first step we need to. I would like to probably start this conversation on because before we even start talking about product and marketing and da-da-da, and and all of these kind of communication bits, that's not true, or at least none of us know nobody in the world of tennis knows if that's true. That's just something that's thrown out there that's making maybe decisions that have been made easier. So, so so then I think what there then has been is this anger of like, well, who is this? Who's who's making this decision? And I but again, I don't know. I don't know what the truth is, you know. It seems like it's a couple

Challenging The “Not Sustainable” Claim

SPEAKER_00

of individuals that have been named that are on the player council that used to they happen to just be they played tennis mainly when there was one against one. Okay, whatever. It doesn't, it's still tennis, right? But it's like, and they happen to be okay tennis players, they probably didn't make a lot of money in their time, and they weren't the the highest level players, so they were kind of the the I call them in our sport, we've got our superstars, we've got our the traveling circus, your trapezius artists, the the the short sellers, you know. We we know who they are in our sport, and there isn't many of them. You've then maybe got a next layer of maybe B B levels, maybe you know, the kind of five to twenty guys in the singles ranking because they've been promoted and marketing, and then the rest, 20 down and the doubles players, we're the C players, right? You know, it's all in the same stages, and and they play an important role in our sport of tennis, but they're not the main characters, and and they're not they're not trying to be sold as that, but they do have a really important role of providing content and providing entertainment. We're an entertainment business, that's why that's what the industry is. So I would say there's been quite a bit of anger towards those people that might be wrongly directed because there's no transparency. So so so that's where I think where where I'm at with it now is I just like a bit of transparency. I think you know, we're we're not what we're what we before we get into the position of assumption-based communication, and where but the first thing is let's not assume that it's accurate that doubles is not sustainable. It's almost like some people have accepted that bit and then have moved on. Oh, you're that just taking that as given. What what what do you mean doubles is not accept uh is sustainable? Tennis, tennis, like what what that's that's one element of you know, you go to a tennis tournament, and okay, we'll talk about ATP WTA tournaments, not Grand Slams, because that's a different entity. But you go to Indian Wells, Will somebody pays their ticket to go to the event of Indian Wells, which has some men playing tennis, it has some women playing tennis, it has some singles matches, and it has some doubles matches. You then have people, some people spend a lot of money on merchandise, some people spend a lot of money on food and beverage, some people do you know different things. But if you get a tennis TV subscription, some people watch that everyone watches men because we've got this messed up sport where you can't watch tennis in one place, but everyone's watching men on tennis TV, but some are watching singles and some are watching doubles. There's no tangible way of anybody really knowing. It's just this whole people are paying for so I don't even want to move forward too much with too many conversations until until we actually understand what what what are we dealing with what are we dealing with here? Like let's like what does not sustainable? And in Calvin Betton, who's a good friend of mine, and I know you speak to Calvin as well, and he always articulates himself very well on these things. You know, he said this to me a couple of times this week. It's like, if nothing changes, tennis is sustainable currently. It's sustainable. It's happening. There's you know, we've been trying to look into numbers, and somebody the the numbers aren't very transparent, but somebody said the ATP's profit profit last year was 57 million in some numbers that they were seeing. So so it's a very sustainable model that's working. So if nothing changes, it's working. So actually, actually, what is happening here is they're looking to take the money that is currently put into I don't know what they're trying to do, but that that's what it sounds like, and actually just move that money around to make a few more people richer, and and for the money to be less spread around, you know. And again, let's forget singles and doubles for a minute, because the next thing will be they'll look to do that to spread it into less singles players, right? This is all just it that's again what you hear. So so again, that sits really badly with me when I again I love tennis, I love it. One of my things about tennis that I've always struggled a bit with is how elitist it is. Yeah, we're trying to become more elitist. Like, like, are we what we so like? What do you now? Like, I own an academy in in in the south of Spain. Well, I now start, I mean, we've got it with it goes down to college tennis. College tennis has become more elitist because of the NIL. So, so so like this has a massive knock-on effect all the way through our sport. Like, how do how do I have a conversation with a parent of a 12, 13-year-old and say, well, you've got to be top 16 in the world singles player, or you're not gonna make any money out of the sport, and you have to be a 13.5 UTR, you can't go to Division I college. So we now have like we've got what we've got 20 spaces to make money on the professional tour, like Formula One, and we have another 500 spots in Division I College, and the rest of you, no, no, there's no future in tennis. But by the way, why don't you come along and play every day at the club? And that it the whole the whole knock-on effect is massive, and that's uh that's where I think this um I uh without trying to lose my point. This is where I think we've gotta we've gotta get away from assumptions, we've gotta get to what does it mean that it's not sustainable? Secondly, is there an intention if it can be what what does sustainable look like if it currently isn't sustainable? Which I don't believe that's true, but if it's not, what does it mean? And from a financial standpoint, what does that mean? Do you now want to have do you now have the intention over the next five, ten, fifteen years for doubles to be part of the product of tennis, professional tennis? If you do, okay, great. Let's have let's go let's let's let's all talk about that on how that can happen. And that's when for me, then obviously the marketing stuff comes in, and that's when you know the storytelling comes in. That's when it's like we saw it with Arkansas, Arkansas men's tennis team went under. Two weeks later, they'd raised five to seven million US dollars to keep the team alive because the passion was there, right? That's that's uh that's a men's tennis team in Arkansas. The passion that people have for the game of doubles in tennis, the sport of tennis is huge. Let's let's make let's make no bones about it. Anyone that's saying it's not is nonsense. It's like 70% of people that play the sport of the sport of tennis play doubles.

Intent And Respect Come First

SPEAKER_00

You go around and and again, propaganda, Riley's putting his picture up of an empty stadium. When there's empty stadiums in in doubles, there's empty stadiums in singles, right? It's you know it's so funny. Well, he is, he is, and I'm sure he's sitting and having a bit of a laugh, and he in he and it's his kind of and and maybe you know again this is not about Riley, but it's like the the the the the there is a thirst for tennis. We've got an amazing sport, and there is a thirst for doubles. So, what does that look like? Do we do we does the money need to be raised? Okay, if that's the case, at least know, at least so everyone knows transparently. But it the big word here will is intention. If there's not an intention to have doubles in the future of the ATP, okay, get your polls on the line and make that decision. Don't try and bluff us all, don't try and cut the pathway off and then and and and and and do it in that sort of way and give us this like and the same with the 80-20, it's not 80-20, it's 80-10-10. So 90-10 is 95-5. Let's also speak truthfully, because the 80-20 split of the money, there's two players that split the 20. So it's 80-10-10, and 90-10 becomes 95-5. So it's like, let's let's let's let's get everything out there honestly, as anything should be done in the world, any relationship, you know, any like I don't start coaching a player until that stuff's absolutely out in the open. And what's the intention? Is the intention to move forward in the right way in a certain way? If it's not, okay. Let everyone know. And then okay, maybe that then then if there is there is then a world of doubles to be out there, there needs to be a new tour, or it needs to be something different, and there's conversations to have with tournament directors and sponsors and different people. Okay, maybe that's the case. I I don't I it's for me, it's another we're already a fractured sport with seven different, you know, it would see it would seem crazy to fracture it even further. That's like, come on, what what is wrong with everyone? You know, let's let's come together. However, if if if that is the intention, that's then let everyone know that's the intention, and then people can move on with some solutions. If it's not the intention and it genuinely is a sustainability issue, let's address that.

SPEAKER_01

Do uh so you mentioned there's a few former players that maybe have uh these are my words, not yours, maybe have like a grudge for not making as much money as they did during their career or some kind of thing against doubles. Um and I wasn't clear, is that are these former players in like a council or are they part of ATP leadership?

SPEAKER_00

So, how it works, and this is an important point as well, Will. That the ATP council, and again, I might uh I from a concept standpoint this is correct information from the an exact standpoint, it might not be sure the ATP council, it's 50% 50% looking after the tournaments and 50% the players. So you then have a tournament side of the council, and you then have a player side of the council, yeah, and you then have you then have your board, but your player reps, where where the ATP and WTA massively differ is these board reps who are and well, let's get the couple of names out then. I don't know them, but like Pablo Anduhar is one of them, and Saucer, is it Jou Saucer, who Portuguese player? I know they are quite recent on the board, and I've been hearing for a long time that they're quite big pushers on this. Now, they've also refused a few conversations I know with players here at Wimbledon that have asked for those conversations. They are making decisions without the player reps, which which I don't know the singles ones on the ATP, but it's Aravello

How ATP Decisions Really Get Made

SPEAKER_00

and Bavasori is the double side of that. So all that the player reps get is they get informed first of the decisions that have been made. Okay, they're not part of they are not part of the decision-making process.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

On the WTA, which which is is the same setup exactly the same, the player, the player reps within that council, they are part of the decision-making process. So again, if we take on the double meeting, it's Gabby Dobrowski, Alan, Alan Perez, uh, Jess Pagula, you know, I think uh it was it was always Caran Garcia. You know, you've got the and they whenever there's points on the agenda to be discussed, they are part of the discussion. So nothing like this can ever come left field. It doesn't come from nowhere. So it's set up in a very, very different way. And the WTA do a great job of togetherness on that, which and and I know I see it firsthand, you know, that they are working very hard on almost a daily basis on many different aspects of trying to improve the tour. There's a genuine togetherness of how do we improve the tour. If Jesper Goula and Ellen Perez disagreed on something, then they would have to have it out. You know, there would have to be, you know, there would be there would be discussions to have it out. Whereas that, from what I believe to be true, is not the case on the ATP. So when we when we talk about this kind of this seems very personal agenda to me. And again, it's speculation because I don't know, but we have to we are only speculating because of the lack of transparency. So, you know, like I heard a conversation that happened the other day with one of one of those guys that that was talking about Cabral, the doubles player being 20 in the world, is making more money than a singles player Rocher, who's a Portuguese guy at 150 in the world. And that's wrong. That's what was said. That's wrong. So what was given there was that's the personal agenda. Lloyd Glaspool made 1.7 million. They were is I've also heard that. They don't like that, but Lloyd Glaspool was the 40th highest paid player last year. So it's almost it's it's very bottom line money. It seems to be. Again, I have to say it seems to be because I'm now assuming a little bit and picking up because we're not getting the clarity that that there's kind of these agendas that doubles players don't deserve the money that they're that they're getting, you know. That and and that then got this whole thing going. You then get your Riley's, your booblics, your different players. They then get told, by the way, that pot of money, all of this 20 billion's going to these bloody doubles players, and then they get riled up.

SPEAKER_01

So these two guys, though, are on the same council as Vavasori and Arivalo, correct?

SPEAKER_00

They are, but they I don't know exactly, but my my understanding is that they are they are more like the board rep stuff side of things.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, because I've just looked up the the player council, so ATP board. I'm just looking this up like as we're recording this, just to try to try to make sense of it all. Um, because like you said, there is no transparency, so we have to kind of okay, at large player board rep is Pablo Anduhar, and then Nuno Borges is the other one you said, and he's he's just no no borges is a player, no, is Sosa.

SPEAKER_00

So Solsa, Java Sulsa, is it?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I don't see him on this page that says 2026 ATP board of directors. Um, but I do see Pablo Endouhar. Um, anyways, I mean some of this stuff may have changed because this was published uh back in December of last year, so who knows? But okay, I I see that that makes sense. So then with that, one of the things that like I've talked about a lot is you know, we need marketing for doubles. And I don't even really want to talk about that a whole lot uh in this conversation because it just it's so obvious, and we've belabored it over and over and over again and talked about all these marketing ideas, and it's like it's kind of a waste of time at this point. Um but one of the things you've talked about to me a lot is this word respect, right? Um does ATP leadership respect doubles, and if they don't, is there any way to help grow that side of the sport?

SPEAKER_00

Again, I'm assuming in and the the the the actions the actions seem to have a quite a severe lack of respect, you know, and I've said this for a while that doubles as the mistress of the sport, and it's like we own you, but you go over there

Why Doubles Still Belongs At Events

SPEAKER_00

and we're not gonna show you until we need you, and then we'll bring you out, and now you're on shore for a bit, and now you you your job's done, get back there, but by the way, we still own you, so it's like which is not very respectful actions, right? And it's which but but again, this this goes it goes back to what I'm trying to say, Will. It's it's like in any in any line of work or any relationship, what is the intent? If the if if the if the intent is to for it to be a part of the future of the ATP, and also what are the objectives of the ATP? What do they want to do? What what what are they, you know, they're they they're looking at 50% tournaments, 50% players, but how do they want to grow? Do they want to grow? Do they want to maintain? Do they want to, you know, do they have the intention to go to be, you know, we only really want to look after the top 25 singles players in the world and run a Formula One type type tour? And that's okay, that's okay, and that's the case, and we've got a three-year plan to get to there, and then it gives time for other people to develop other tours, but it it's it's what that whole objective and intention is is key for me because then if the if we'd have those things and it's then okay, some it isn't people people are saying it, and it's right. If there is a leg of the business that isn't working, why is it how is it not working? And that's the quantifiable bit that I don't think anyone can give, and I think it's very hard, it's like the gender-based argument. You know, I used to have it.

SPEAKER_01

I would guess, like, sorry to interrupt, I I just I would guess that tennis TV has like streaming numbers um per match, and they could just pull up like the double streams versus the single streams. And if they can, I wouldn't I wouldn't be surprised at all if the doubles is is tiny compared to the singles, right? Yeah, that wouldn't surprise you.

SPEAKER_00

But yeah, you don't uh but but again, we're speculating. It's like yeah, they I don't I would assume they have that.

SPEAKER_01

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but it's just but again, it's like the gender-based argument. It's like people like kind of people that aren't educated, friends of mine over the years would always say men should be paying more than women, and and I always say to them, Well, hold on, if if you're if you're playing the same tournament and people are paying the same amount to for a ticket, they're not buying a ticket. Let's get away from this. People aren't buying it, they're not buying a ticket to go and watch probably anyone. Some they want to be at the event that Alcaraz is at, they want to be at the event that Sabalenka, and if they get to see Sabalenka, amazing. But the way our sport is set up is this entertainment business with all of these other amazing athletes that are also competing. That's that's that's they're part of the show. The show is not a one-person match, the show is the whole event. You know, you come to Wimbledon, the show is the strawberries and cream, the show is the getting to go to the museum, the show is it's it's a whole it's a it's a it's a whole thing. So so it's it's very, very difficult to to be able to to to quantify to quantify that. And I've lost my time thought on that. Well it's it's impossible. It's impossible. But the but the ra the respect piece is is it's it's huge because it's it it's one one just as a as a as trying to be a nice human being, which I think we should all this is bigger than tennis, we should all try and do, right? The world will be a better place if we all support each other and we're we're if if the the the fact that we're basically talking about this this this leg of the sport in such a derogatory way all the time, it's like it's it's it's it's it's weird. It's like I remember when I started coaching some of the top players a few years ago. Louis Caia said to me, Are you sure you want to be a doubles coach, Dan? And I said, Well, yeah, uh he said, Well, just to warn you, you're not you won't get any respect. You know, and I remember him saying that, but and and that's fine. I I don't I don't need that. It's not it's for the it's the players, but it's like that just is just the whole the whole conversation is like that. Even the fact that it's I I don't even really like that it's singles and doubles. It's like everyone's professional tennis players, everyone's extremely dedicated, it's a meritocracy, that's what we're we're told it is. So you get in, you get in on your rankings, everyone can enter the singles events, and if if they're known as a doubles player, if they don't have the singles ranking, they can't get in. If one enters that can enter the doubles tournaments, you know, all of these things. So we we the I don't like that there's such a a lack of respect just from a human standpoint, but going into actual detail of moving this forward, let's let's understand what the intention is. If the intention and the objective is to move forward and to try and grow the sport, how does that look? Is doubles a part of that? If it is, okay, then we start going into the conversations on how that's able to do able to do it. If not, then the then you then go around and you you have to find some some different solutions, and maybe maybe that that comes down the line.

SPEAKER_01

Uh I wonder, um, and I know you you probably have to run soon, so just a couple more questions. We could talk about this for probably six or twelve hours. Um so I wonder this lack of respect, I guess, for for me, we could come up with the best marketing plan for doubles, the best streaming plan for doubles, getting it on TV. But if the organization controlling it and running it doesn't respect it, this amazing marketing plan is not going to be executed well and it's not gonna work, right? So, like without that, and I don't know how you earn that or or get that, but without that, I I don't know that the rest of it matters a whole lot, um, which is hard hard to say and hard to admit. Um, but I think that's where things have to start. And then this thing you keep bringing up about intent, it makes perfect sense. I think you're thinking about it the right way with with that. Like we have to start with what is our intention, what is our goal for the next three, five, ten years for the ATP, for tennis as a whole. If you asked some of these people that question, what is your intent over the next three years, five years, do you think they'd even have an answer?

SPEAKER_00

I don't know. I I think they I think I I really don't.

SPEAKER_01

I I think I think they've thought about that question. I think they've thought about that question as deeply as it merits, uh, in my opinion. No, anyways.

SPEAKER_00

I think I think they would have thought about that question on how to politically answer it to suit the agenda that is in place.

Marketing Can’t Fix Bad Faith

SPEAKER_00

You know, this this this is this if this wasn't personal agenda, and look, like I'm not the right person because I there's an argument that I have a personal agenda, and I get that.

SPEAKER_03

Everybody does.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, it's I I coach I coach doubles players, right? You know, and so so yeah, so there's personal agenda on my job, on you know, these type of things, you know. Um, you know, so so there's so there's there's that argument, of course, but this is why you have should have councils in place where you have people that are representing all of the different voices, right? That's that's how the W we've got a great example in the WTA because they work fantastic, honestly. The WTA works great. It really and there's definitely things that can be better, of course, but the the way that they work as a council and and as a togetherness, and and they're fighting different battles at different times, and they've really progressed a lot of these areas. There's been a lot of work that's gone into that, and it's and it's quite it's non-emotional, it's not personal agenda driven, but it's everyone that's coming from all of these different sides. So, so if if there truly is an intent to to do the best for the the community, best for the for the industry, best for the associated tennis professionals moving forward, then you need all of the voices coming in. And you then need to be making the the the these decisions. And and and on your point about the marketing, you can't say a product doesn't work unless you unless you unless you get it out there. You just you just can't. The end, the end, you can't.

SPEAKER_01

So that's why, yeah, I didn't want to talk about that because it's just so obvious.

SPEAKER_00

But but but but if you don't have the intent for it to work in a in a certain way, because it's like I say, a bit of the mistress of just we'll we'll use you when we want to use you, but just we don't want you to be too much, right? Because you're not the main event, and that's also fine. Um if that's how but but just be honest about it. That's that's this is how we want it to be, and and and but you but you just can't. You you you you but don't give us the bullshit that it's not working. That's my biggest thing. If I had one thing that after reflection on this for two, three days, it's don't give us bullshit. Don't don't be telling people it's not sustainable. That's not true as far as anybody's concerned, unless they can show us that it's not as sustainable, you know. If it's not sustainable, the next part for me is okay, why not? Do you want it to be sustainable? Which is the intent that I'm talking about. Is there a want? Is there a desire for it to be sustainable? Okay, there is, right. Two years, a two-year plan to get it up to a sustainability. What does that look like? That's then when we have someone like yourself coming in. That's when we have the different people that are passionate about that, about doubles. Give, give, give them a chance, give the give them a an opportunity to put to put rather than putting this money in, which I'm sure is going to happen at some point for some kind of legal thing that might might come along with all of this, because people aren't going to give up on this. We're too passionate about it. The players are too passionate about it, they've dedicated their life to it. They are brilliant tennis players, they are out there working their craft, they are so they've changed doubles in the last 10 years, like beyond. It's unbelievable. We talk about it in the matches watching this week. It is it it's it's and some people go, it's boring. Okay, people can have their their opinion on that, and then maybe part of that is moving moving the the the rules in some ways to to change the sport. And in I don't personally believe it needs that, but it's only become a bit like that because they're so good because of the hours that go into it, and it's like, but these people let's not let's not have people putting money together to bring lawyers in to try and fight this in this in fighting, they would put their money towards social media campaigns, the specialist social media peoples on tennis. I have no doubt if you went to the top 100 ATP doubles players and we and asked for two or three grand of each of them, we've now got a pot of 300 grand.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and be so money.

SPEAKER_00

I I don't make any money, really. I'd put some money into it.

SPEAKER_01

I would organize it and not take a salary, just give me the rights to the video.

SPEAKER_00

Like that is exactly. So there's so there's people that will absolutely do this, yeah. So so this so this is why I can't I can't get past show us that it's not sustainable and why, and give and then give a chance on how to fix that if you intend for it to be fixed.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So one are you are you giving us the right information? Is it not sustainable? Two, if it's not sustainable, why? And uh and and three, do you want it to be? And then four, okay. How do we do that?

SPEAKER_01

What does that look like? Yeah, okay. A few more, two more, and then you can go. Uh this one you can answer briefly. Um, maybe a probability is like 50-50, 75-20. This announcement is for changes in 2028. When it doesn't have to be the ATP, but any tennis organization makes an announcement that's more than I don't know, three months out. I put the odds of it happening pretty low a lot of the time. How likely is this to happen in 2028?

SPEAKER_02

I think it's happening.

SPEAKER_00

I think I think it's I think it's it's it's I think it's happening if depending on what happens next, because there's gonna be a fight. And I I think it goes I think it potentially gets very ugly. And and that makes me sad as well, because like I keep saying, we're a we're we are a team, we are the traveling circus. Let's let's get over ourselves thinking that we're something different to that. We're not, we're uh we're a we're a cog in this this machine that goes around the world and provides entertainment in many different cities, and it's the most amazing, beautiful sport ever. But it this is not gonna just be given up easily because of what everyone has put into it. So so but uh from what I'm hearing, this is like it's it's the announcement, PC, is it's happening, like it's it's they're nothing signed, but I believe it's happening, and and and and

Will The 2028 Plan Happen

SPEAKER_00

for it to actually happen, I think there then becomes other steps, and I think it becomes a bumpy, bumpy road for everyone involved, you know, because I don't think it's going to be just given up without without a big, big fight. And I think, like I say, if that what that looks like, who knows? So so yeah, so if if in terms of is this, I go back to the word intention, in terms of the intent, I would say it's 90-10, 95-5. I think it'll you know, I then lower those odds a little bit because I know I know the the feeling and I know the the amount of people out there that have a strong, strong, strong burning desire and passion for this, and it's it's not going to be given up easily.

SPEAKER_01

Um, last question. What are the players doing? What can they do? What do you think they should do? Do you have advice for them?

SPEAKER_00

They they they what they've done this week in the biggest tennis tournament in the world, which is not ideal preparing for tournaments and the the tournament, is they've brought awareness, right? They wanna they want to blow this out, they open this has all been done very secretly, you know. That's um I would imagine the ATP's intention, you know, let's do this secret thing and let's dress it up, let's control the narrative. That's what's tried to happen. It's and the example I would give on that is you know, I don't know which country it is, but like they want in like 60 years for people to not smoke anymore. So like one year you have to be 19 to smoke, the next year you have to be 20, the next year 21, right? And that's basically what I'm led to believe is is happening, right? They're closing the pathway, so they'll be trying to tell the top, top doubles, you're fine. But then when Aravello stops and then Pavich stops, and then da da da da. It's what they're trying to create, which also I just don't think works because singles players don't want to play doubles, they can every week, they can play. They

What Players Can Do Right Now

SPEAKER_00

don't want to, it's like they they either tank or they pull out, or the odd week you then might get them like play. It's it's a hindrance for them in lots of ways, you know. So they my understanding is they're trying to still have doubles, but that you can at the lower challenges in the 250s, but you can only get in on your singles ranking. So they're trying to close the pathway in for any specialists coming in. So they'll be trying to control the narrative to the top players, you'll fight the 16 draws, you'll get in into the 1000s, you know. And I understand the intention of Grand Slams is absolutely not to call that route. So so, in some ways, that narrative will be there's not no change, there's no change apart from prize money drop for for for you for you guys. So it's it's that's that's the what was the question, Will? I've I've gone off on a tangent.

SPEAKER_01

You're good. No, that was a good tangent because that was some information I did not know. Uh what can the players do and what should they do? What advice do you want to do?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so so so yeah, so the awareness is the first bit, the second bit is answers. Need answers. To understand, need need need to understand what we're actually talking about here in terms of what I'm saying there, the sustainability, you know, and and the intent. Is is what do you mean by is that doubles is not sustainable? Give us give us the facts. What does that mean? What does that mean? How are you breaking down every ticket sale at every ATP tournament, every TV right, every sponsorship deal, every merchandise, every hot dog, every drink bought? How are you breaking that down in into the into the narrative that doubles cost the ATP 20 million? Is that the number they're saying? That's the number I've heard. Again, that's not fact. This is speculative because you're having conversations, you know. What what are, and then okay, is it the tournament directors? That's another narrative. Well, the tournament directors don't want to give hospitality out to the butt, it needs to be all factually out there and the answers need to be out there. And then the third thing, do you have an intention to work together and bring together a strategic plan to work together to to it? Okay, we don't want you to lose money on this product. If you're losing money on this product, we don't want that. We want the tournament directors to be happy, we want to be providing a great product for the tournament directors and the tournament so that they want us all there. So, how does that look? Are you are you open to working together on that? Yes or no? If you're not, okay. That's that that is almost the end of conversation. That's almost end of conversation, and then new conversations need to open on on who is open to have something like that, you know. From a player standpoint, and I'm sorry to use the word singles and doubles, I don't like breaking it into that. I actually don't want to listen to anybody other than the main characters. Because because I don't believe that any anybody voicing off about this on on the on the single side is is has truly got a voice to really come from. And and and if it is that Carlos Alcaraz and Yannick Sinna come out and they say, Do you know what? Because it's their tour, they they own the rights to the tour right now. They're the they are that they are. That's that's that's how it works.

SPEAKER_01

Separate issue in my mind, but go on.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yes, well, it is, it is, but that is the situation. Okay, we don't want we we we are doing all of this work and we are creating all of this value and we want it all, and we don't want you to have it. Okay, Carlos, fair play. You uh that's if that if that's what Carlos says, but if somebody, any of these others that love the mouthing off and loves love all these saying this, shut your mouths. Do you know what I mean? Like let's let let's let's let's not pretend that you are relevant in this discussion, right? But but let's but so so I think that's where they need to go. They need to have conversations and they need they need to get answers. They're trying to get awareness, which I think has been a good thing. They need to have uh answers, and it's not easy, and I you can even see me going off on emotional tangents in this conversation, but keeping our heads switched on as well, and I think the players that's important that the the players keep their heads switched on and they stick together, and that would be the that would probably my last bit of advice. Stick together. Anybody that is is a double specialist, they're true, they they're they they have made their mind up that that's the the the journey that they are on. You know, everybody needs to stick together because it's going to be strength in numbers and togetherness over the next few months and next couple of years. If you start getting other people breaking free from that, and you have a fracture amongst that fraternity, then then then I think then I think there's there's there's big big problems ahead, you know. And that and that would be the same advice uh across the next level of that, Will, is I would have tennis players sticking together to have the relevant conversations with the tournament directors to get a higher share of the profits or whatever it might be. I know people talk about revenue. I would see a business as share of profit, not share of revenue, but whatever that conversation is to bring more money into the pot rather than infighting, taking money off each other. So, what we don't want to happen is there's a layer in the doubles that the there's infighting on now the smaller pot that goes to doubles players, that there's infighting on that pot of money. You know, we need to bring that bit together, and then we need to try and get all of the players together, and and then we need to get the whole industry together to be able to, and there's probably another level, you know, if tennis comes together and there's not seven fractured uh governing bodies, look how powerful we would be going into conversations with broadcasters and sponsors and all of these different things, right? And it's just on a on on a more micro-macro level, so um definitely stronger together.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, there's a lot of layers to it, and I think yeah, one of the things it seems like to me is is potentially whoever the the tournament leadership or ATP leadership, whatever that this is a good thing for them because nobody's looking at their piece of the pie if the doubles and singles players are fighting over money, right? Like 100%. Nobody's nobody's looking at the fact that tennis players make a lower percentage of of revenue among major sports, right? Like it in that exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly right. But you know, if we're all if we're all together then and not in fighting, then we can fight the real battles that need to be fought. But that's that's uh it doesn't take much to a fully dedicated, and sorry, Alex Di Manure, because I like Alex a lot, but he was asked about it yesterday, and it's not his fault. Like Alex

Stick Together And Fight The Real Battle

SPEAKER_00

De Manure would just be fed a snippet, but he's too busy and too too much else going on in his world. He's trying to be one of the great best tennis players in the world. Like, I don't blame him, it's not his fault, but he's just been this is a really important point because this is this is this is what's happening, is a bit like someone who reads one little thing on social media, you know. Then you make your decision on on a whole huge topic, but he's just been fed the numbers don't work, Alex. Oh, okay. Well, what do you think? Well, I feel sorry for doubles players. I've got lots of friends who play doubles, but but clearly the numbers don't work. But but what what what who said that? Well, what does that mean? How do we say and that and that's ultimately it, right? But like, and that's what the players are being fed, and and it's not for Alex Demanu to be questioning that, you know, as much as you'd love him to, he's got a lot of you'll have a lot on that. Of course he doesn't, of course he doesn't. So so that's what that's what's being believed, you know, and and this is this is where the challenge lies, and this is where the I guess the the political game is is be is being played, and people that have got voices that go further and wider than mine and yours will.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, I hope the players can bring some transparency to it that'll at least force some people's hand to be a bit more transparent as well. But anyways, Dan, we'll chat again soon. Thanks a ton for hopping on. I know you have some uh some soccer or football to go watch. So uh I appreciate you coming on.

SPEAKER_00

And thanks for all you do as well, Will. I I get to say it every now and then when I come on, but we do all appreciate it, so thank you. Thanks a lot.