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Doubles Only Tennis Podcast
The only tennis podcast with a focus on doubles. We believe doubles should be more popular and get more coverage than it does, so we’re fixing that. Our goal is to help you become a better player with pro doubles tips and expert strategy. We interview ATP & WTA tour doubles players and top tennis coaches to help you improve your game.
Doubles Only Tennis Podcast
The Cruelest Game with Matt Futterman: Why Players Quit, Their Childhoods, and Happiness Compared to Other Sports
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Matt Futterman is an award-winning sports journalist for The Athletic and New York Times. His new book is The Cruelest Game: Chasing Greatness in Professional Tennis.
This is a fascinating conversation about the book and why professional tennis can feel uniquely brutal, even for the best players in the world.
We talk through the childhood pipeline, the mental load of constant losing, and what separates the era of Serena, Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic from the stars trying to survive now.
- Why tennis players walk away at their peak in a way players in other sports don't
- The hidden costs of junior tennis: money, travel, isolation, and identity
- Conditional love and pressure from family expectations
- Why “winning feels like relief” at the top and why that is dangerous
- Resilience tools: staying present, bouncing back after bad points, learning under stress
- Why legends struggle to retire and how greatness becomes a trap
- What the ATP doubles cuts get wrong about the real problem
- Practical ideas for doubles: format, scheduling, atmosphere, and rules
Purchase Matt's new book on Amazon: The Cruelest Game: Chasing Greatness in Professional Tennis
Learn more about Matt & follow:
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Why Tennis Feels Different
SPEAKER_00You're about to hear my conversation with Matt Futterman. Matt is an award-winning sports journalist who has covered numerous professional sports over the last few decades, including 10 Olympic Games, other pro sports, and most recently tennis. He writes for The Athletic and The New York Times. He's previously worked for the Wall Street Journal, the Philadelphia Inquirer, and other publications. He's also a marathon runner and a tennis player. And in this conversation with Matt, we discuss his new book, which came out just a few days ago, called The Cruelest Game: Chasing Greatness in Professional Tennis. We do talk about doubles at the end, but this focus is on his book, which I find to be a fascinating topic. I've already started reading the book or actually listening on Audible, which is uh Catherine Whitaker's voice, um, who hosts the tennis podcast, has a great British accent, uh, so that's fun to listen to. But the book so far is fantastic, and it's a topic that I really um just curious about and interested in. Um, so we start out discussing why tennis players might be less happy than other professional athletes. Why is tennis the only sport where players like Ash Bardy leave while they're ranked number one or two in the world at the peak of their professional career, when that doesn't happen in any other sport? Uh, we dive into the childhood of tennis players, of top pro tennis players, and how it compares to other sports. We talk about why us as fans and as media should have empathy and understanding for pro tennis players when sometimes they might act selfishly or a bit entitled. Of course, that's not true of all pro tennis players, but it is true of some of them. So, why should we have a little bit of compassion towards them in that scenario? Uh, and then also the end of their careers. Why do a lot of them refuse to give up at the end of their careers, especially the great ones? And why that makes them so great to begin with? So this is a deep, kind of almost psychological um analysis of pro tennis players. And like I said, I'm not done with the book because I just got it a couple of days ago, but I'm really enjoying it so far. I'm gonna link to it in the show notes so you can check it out as well. Um, but if you're a tennis fan uh and really just a sports fan, I think you'll enjoy it because Matt's such a great writer and definitely listen to the audiobook if you like audiobooks uh as well. And then at the end we talk about Pro Doubles. Um, we talk about the ATP doubles news, Matt's take on it, uh, and um some ideas on how to uh save or improve or turnaround the idea that professional doubles on the ATP tour is being cut in half and slowly diminishing. So uh without further delay, enjoy this conversation with Matt Futterman. Hey everyone, welcome to the show. Today we have Matt Futterman on, the author of the new book, The Cruelest Game: Chasing Greatness in Professional Tennis. Matt, welcome. Uh, thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks for coming uh back on the show. Um, so your new book was just released yesterday. I want to talk about the topic of the book. Before we get to that, though, I want to talk about just kind of the process of writing this book, releasing this book. How has the release been so far? How's the reception been so far?
SPEAKER_01Uh so far, so good. It's been out for 24 hours. Um, and uh things are going things are things are going pretty well. Seems like people like it. Um, and you know, what's been really rewarding is getting some really nice notes from people who know a lot about the sport, in some cases may know more about it than me, uh, who are very complimentary of it. And so uh I feel like you know, I uh that that makes it pass a pretty big test. Um quite pleased with that.
SPEAKER_00Do you do you have like a book tour or anything like that? Or is this is this kind of it? It's like you you hop on as many podcasts as possible to
Launching A Book In 2026
SPEAKER_00to try to um share the book.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so initi I mean it's a lot more cost effective to hop on as many, uh initially at least, to hop on as many podcasts and outlets as you can um to get the word out that the book is there. I mean, there's something like 55,000 books published in America every year. And you know, one of the big challenges just to make people aware of, you know, that um that a that a book has been published. Uh so that's a you know, that's that's the biggest challenge. So it's incredibly helpful to speak with people like you and tennis podcasts and the uh grounds pass and you know lots of other people, uh, and to tell them because you all have different listening audiences. Um you never know, you know, you can't you you never know how you're gonna get in touch with people. Um so so there's a lot of media doing sort of that I'm doing now and then into the US Open Um because that's where interest is peaking. And then in the fall, uh I have some public appearances scheduled and will likely be scheduling more as more people hear about the book. Um you know what most authors don't do anymore is show up at a bookstore on a Tuesday night and hope that you know a a handful of other people uh have a free night, have gotten in their cars, and and have come out there to meet you. That that unless you're a unless you're a real superstar author, that's that's a that's a good way to lose your company's money in a in a hurry.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. A lot more people can listen to this than can fit in a uh a bookstore. Um yeah, I wasn't sure if like when you hopped on, if you were gonna be in Montreal or Toronto, like you know, doing a book tour up there um while the Canadian Open's going on, or but the podcast thing makes a lot of sense. Um so let's start with the book, why the title, The Cruelest Game?
SPEAKER_01Uh well, I guess I'll throw it back to you. Have you ever experienced um what feels like cruelty on a tennis court? Whether it's you know a really important point and the guy, you know, hits a ball that ticks the top of the net and dribbles over and you can't get to it. Uh probably, right?
SPEAKER_00Um I I have in a few different ways. That would be one of them. A few weeks ago came to mind. Uh I just told you before we started recording that I live in Fort Worth and the on-court temperature. One of my buddies has one of those like temperature readings. So he measured it on the court and measured 155 degrees. So that was cruel playing tennis in those conditions as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, this is a brutal sport. Um it's a combat sport. Uh, it involves you know, a tremendous amount of practice from a very young age. There are not that many good jobs. Um, only what about a hundred people at any one point are making money or breaking even. Um, and everyone else is sort of struggling to. Uh, so there's that aspect to it. But even at the top level, uh it's it can be very difficult. Um,
The Meaning Of The Cruelest Game
SPEAKER_01I I've you know I've covered just about every other sport that there is, uh, certainly in America. I haven't covered cricket. Um, but you know, I've covered the NFL, I've covered Major League Baseball and the NBA and NHL and all the other all the other big time sports. And there is something unique to tennis, which is that every so often, um a lot more often than you would predict, uh a 25-year-old in his athletic prime or her athletic prime, sometimes their number one in the world, walks away from the game. And that is something that just does not happen in the NBA or other sports. I mean, maybe it's happens, it it it's happened in the last few years a little bit with some NFL players who had head injuries and were worried about um their brain health moving forward for the rest of their lives. So you've seen it in that realm, but you you just don't see it uh in golf or like I said, in in any of the other sports. So what I set out to do um when I was writing this book is I, you know, I want to answer the question of you know what makes this sport different from all other sports? Um, why is this h why does this happen uh so often? Going back to my childhood with Bjorn Borg and leading all the way up to Ash Bardi in 2022, both of whom were 25, 26 years old, number one, number one and number two in the world, uh and just decided enough was enough and they didn't want to do anymore, do it anymore. And like I said, that doesn't happen in any other sport. So it's a matter of trying to figure out why. And I think it's a combination. You mentioned the heat. It's a pretty big court to cover all by yourself. I know you I know you talk a lot about doubles here. It's a different game. Yes, it's great to have a buddy there, but much of tennis is is focused on singles. You are out there alone on the court. Yes, there is some on court coaching, but the coaches are or now there is, the coaches are in the stands, it can be hard to hear, can't call timeout. Um, there's all these factors that go into that go into the sport uh that make it just incredibly difficult. And um I think pretty pretty cruel, especially because you know, these kids, a lot of the players out there, they've been doing pretty much one thing from the time they're eight years old. They go to school online, they you know, it's it it's a it's a different kind of childhood. It's very intense. Um it's the Hunger Games out there.
SPEAKER_00What uh I wanted to ask about the the childhood. So, what is the difference between the childhood of an elite, say top 10 tennis player versus other sports that you've covered?
SPEAKER_01Well, I guess first of all is you know when you go to compete for the most part, uh you're either on a team or if you're a golfer, you got a caddy walking next to you. Um I guess skiers are individuals, uh, but you know, they're going against the clock. Nobody's trying to they're going against a clock and they're going against a mountain. Nobody's trying to knock them down. Um they don't have to play defense against anybody. Uh financially, I want to say that being a good team sport athlete who's on travel teams and competing at a high level is gonna cost his family, you know, private coaching, things like that, I don't know, ten to twenty thousand dollars a year if if the family is able to invest as much as they can. Um you know, tennis is probably fifty to a hundred thousand dollars a year
The Childhood Pipeline And Costs
SPEAKER_01at this point, if you're gonna get the proper coaching and you're gonna travel the way, the way you need to travel. So uh that is you know, that is a huge difference. And you know, just if you think about a young female tennis player who's turning pro and playing ITFs at 14 or 15, she's basically starting to travel the world uh you know, without any friends and with hanging out mostly with older people, largely adults. Okay. Um that's not really a fun way to spend your teenage years, uh, you know, living out of kind of bad hotel rooms and spending your time with older coaches, overwhelming the overwhelming number of them are male. So uh and and you know, and men go through a similar existence, it's just that they're they track a little older because um, you know, they they're not big enough and they can't compete at 14, 15 years old professionally for the most part. So I would say those are the those are the biggest differences.
SPEAKER_00I was listening earlier to um your interview on the tennis podcast, and one of the things that you said was regardless of what people think of tennis players, they come at their opinions or their take or uh what have you, that they come at it with honesty. And you mentioned their childhoods. Um, and this is something I've thought a lot about as well, as I've gotten to know some of the players and um talked to media people like yourself and just gotten closer and closer to the professional side of our sport and thinking about their childhoods, having almost like you know, when I when I see like I'm a big double doubles advocate and big doubles guy, but when I see Riley Opelco like lash out at doubles, right? Like I actually try to have a little bit of kind of compassion for him because I feel like his childhood was so different than mine, and professional tennis players have such a unique childhood that they're going to come at things from a different perspective. Is that kind of fair to say? Is that kind of what you're getting at?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, it's pretty, it's a pretty adversarial world, but I guess what I'm getting at is, you know, when people call tennis players spoiled or entitled or uh, you know, things like that. I mean it's a tough way to grow up. You know, you are you're the gladiator out there, and you're carrying a lot on your shoulders. You're carrying the hopes and dreams of oftentimes a parent or both parents or an entire family. Stefano Sitzipas is the only guy with an actual job in his family. Everybody else is on his payroll, basically, uh, although he recently fired his father for like the eighth time. So, you know, I mean, it's i it's a it's a really big burden to shoulder. And there is a lot of conditional love. Okay. There, you know, there are big celebrations by parents when you win, there is a lot of support when you lose, but it's very easy to understand to get the message that happiness and love depend on whether I win. Um and that's a complicated way to grow up. Uh you know, I think a lot of people grow up experiencing that in the form of, well, you have to do it well in school and get into a good college.
Entitlement, Pressure, Conditional Love
SPEAKER_01Um, I would say this is that on steroids because you know, there are thousands of seats in prestigious American colleges available every year. Uh, you know, there's only 10 spots in the top 10 in tennis. Um, there's only four Grand Slams a year. Pretty much everybody loses every week in tennis. So um it's a it it and that's at every level. Uh, you know, even really great juniors lose a lot. Um so it's a it's a tough existence. And um, so I think in some sense, you know, I'm not giving everybody a pass. Uh you still have to treat people, you still should treat people well with respect and and you know, yeah, and be polite and all those things. But at the same time, you know, it is a it is a different, it is a different existence that they've had, and I think there's it's important to both empathize with that and have an understanding of it either before you pass judgment or while you pass judgment.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I mean, I if I I try to put myself in their shoes, and I think I think if I had grown up with the background of whoever it is, I'm not even gonna name players, but whoever it is that's going off on TV or being disrespectful or acting entitled, like if I had had their same upbringing, would I act significantly better? I'm I'm not sure that I would. You know, I'm not I'm not always so sure that I would. So I think that's a good approach to approach it with empathy. Um are tennis players happy compared to other athletes? I want to say no.
SPEAKER_01When you say compared to other athletes, um just given the locker rooms that I've been in and and let's just go with like I don't know if it yeah, like the top 20 tennis players. Um, yeah, some of them are happy, but even the best ones. I mean, Carlos Alcaraz has talked about his, you know, sort of he hasn't used the word depression, but it sounds a lot like it when he talks about being down and not smiling and asking his parents asking him why he seemed so sad so often. Um this was a couple years ago, uh, when he was he was injured for a bit and you know, was out and then it was the offseason and he just sort of lost some of his drive and motivation. Um but Igish Fiantech, does that stress? I mean, she never there are happy things that happen to her, but when I see her at tennis tournaments, um she will be the first to admit about the tension, it is to admit the tension that she's feeling, the pressure she's feeling, the expectations that wear
Happiness, Identity, Mental Health
SPEAKER_01on her, the stress that she experiences on a tennis court. And uh, you know, I think it's you know, I think it's it's endemic to the sport, I think, in some sense, that a lot of these players sort of hit a wall at some point, either in their late teens or twenties, where they start to question, like, what have I been doing my whole life? Because it's not like it's not like they're they're football players who spent three years at the University of Alabama and met lots of different people and were exposed to the rest of the world. These people have been on a tennis court for what, four to eight hours a day since they were 10 years old, eight years old. This is the only world they know. There's no real safety net, okay? There is for there's something of a safety net financially for the wealthiest players. Um but you know, if tennis gets taken away from them in some ways, like they don't know much in the way of education. Uh I don't know that a lot of them really know themselves beyond their identity as a tennis player. And that's something they all really have to get. That's a place where they all really have to get to. Uh Ben Crow, who has been a mindset per you know, a mindset coach for you know several players and corporate, you know, CEOs and lots of lots of people, women who have survived sexual slavery. Um you know, one thing he has all of his clients do uh is they need to write an essay describing themselves where they can't say their profession or where they're from. Um and what they have what he's aiming to do is he's trying to get them in touch with sort of the whole person, what he refers to as you know, the human being rather than the human doing, and make you understand that you are so much more than the sport that you play. And uh I think it's a really valuable exercise, not just for tennis players, but for everybody. I did it last week.
SPEAKER_00Um I was just thinking I'm gonna go do this uh here in the next week or so.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I did it. I did it because I was feeling rather anxious about my book coming out and book getting reviewed, and you know, in the same way that a tennis player gets evaluated on uh, you know, how many uh how many wins he or she can rack up during the year. Writers get evaluated on how many books they can sell. And that's not really fun. You have no control over that. So uh I I I felt like it would be a worthwhile experiment to sort of just write about you know who I was, you know, who I was, my strengths, my weaknesses, all sorts of things like that, the things I love, the things I like, the things I dislike, regrets, um emotions. uh emotions, tastes, joys, uh things, things along those lines. And you really sort of it sort of pushes you to understand yourself beyond your business card.
SPEAKER_00Did you feel better after you did it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I like it a lot.
SPEAKER_00I like what I love I love exercises like that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah it was a great it was a great exercise.
SPEAKER_00So you you mentioned top 20 players and then you mentioned Iga do you feel like the because I feel like earlier and and you'd know this better than me I feel like earlier in Iga's career she at least from my perspective which is like I haven't interacted with her one on one at all but it seemed like she seemed happier earlier in her career. And then once she reached the top maybe some of that faded. So do you think that maybe for some players it doesn't have to be her specifically like you are happy as your ranking is climbing but then once you reach that top 20 or top 10 you get there and you're just like what now well when you get to the top 10 you think you know how do I get to the top five and then you know you're desperate to top one.
SPEAKER_01Yeah yeah you're desperate to be number one and then you a lot of players get there and they think uh oh there's nowhere else for me to go except down at this point and so they're just expected to win and winning feels like relief and losing is losing brings on sadness and that's not a very good equation. You're never really happy. Being just relieved when good things happen uh i i is not sort of I would argue a particularly joyful existence and that's where I think that's where Iga really found herself once she got to once she got to number one. You speak of early in her career I did not know her until she won the French Open. I got to know her in the couple of months after the French Open um had I've had lots of conversations with Daria Bromovich who's her sports traveling sports psychologist and probably the person she's closest to in the world other than her dad um and you know hearing about the hard work that they did both leading up the French up to that initial French open win and then the maintenance that she has to do every every week, every day you know to keep her spirits up you know really hard work because she's very prone to the stress that comes with the expectations that have been put upon her. So uh it's a real challenge. But I mean the climb is really hard and these are very competitive people. They spend most of their childhoods being the best as far as the eye could see for the most part. And you know then they get to this you know they get to a a a really well either a small pool or a big pool depending on how you how you how you see it. But they get to a really competitive really fat you know really fast pool and it's really hard. I'm constantly struck watching tennis how hard it is to win a match.
SPEAKER_00Brad how do how do these these players today Iga you mentioned Carlos um we haven't talked about Naomi Osaka who's struggled with their own mental health issues who have reached the top how did they compare to Serena Feder Nadal Djokovic?
SPEAKER_01Well I think you know part the sort of driving the driving force the narrative of the book is this idea that you have these players over the last 20 years who had sort of picked the lock of the sport and seemed to have grasped I don't know if you call them secret codes because I don't know if they're secrets but had they had they had they had learned how to both thrive and survive in this sport or learned how to both survive and thrive in a sport that you know kind of eats its young in many ways. And they were exiting the stage although Novak's still around and Serena's coming back. But you know they're clearly in the sunset of their careers uh if the sun hasn't already set as it has with the Dalin Federer and Murray. And then you had this new cohort of players who were just desperate to figure out how this generation of greats had possibly done this. You know how had they how had they survived this gauntlet for so long and done it in a kind of what looked like to so many of us is a kind of effortless way. Yes, they lost matches and got annoyed and things like that, but there they were
What The Greats Do Better
SPEAKER_01the next week or the next month or the next slam or the next season and they were right back at it and climbing their way right back to the top. So there was that tension there uh as the sport went through this transition moment. And so what separates them I think the most common thing is this ability uh it's gonna sound cliche but you know this ability to just stay really in the present and see the job as an opportunity not a burden. And and I'll go a little deeper on that. When I say in the present you know the basic thing in tennis is like once a point is over it's gone. You know and once a tournament is over it's gone. And you know my dad always told me like the only thing that matters in life is what you do next. And um of course other things do matter but you know what you do next is really important because you're gonna fall down you know how are you going to get up how are you going to play the next point after you double faulted six times uh Max Eisenbud the the sort of top agent in tennis who runs IMG IMG's tennis operation you know he told me when he's looking at kids and deciding whether to sign him the quality that he looks at is seeing that kid who can miss a down the line forehand 25 times in a row and then go for it on the 26th shot and nail it and because what that shows him is a kind of resilience and a belief um that that can carry you really far. I don't know if it's stubbornness, it's delusion all of those can be very healthy when you're an athlete and when specifically when you're a tennis player um all of those are qualities that the great ones have uh but I think what they what they really have is this ability to sort of bounce through uh adversity and setbacks and move on to the next one. You know one of the anecdotes that keeps that people keep citing in the book is is you know Coco Goff in the semifinals the U.S. Open in 23 when there was the climate protest and I ran into her in the catacombs of the of Arthur S Stadium in the middle of that and I was thinking oh she's she's gonna freak out she's 19 years old she was cruising and now this is going to mess her up and you know we saw each other and she was like it's the climate protesters isn't it and I was like yeah I think it is and she just like got this grin on her face of like she had flipped it around and it made her feel great that she was like the bell of the ball and that they had chosen her match to make their statement because that was a hugely high profile match and they hadn't chosen some men's match. Would she would she prefer not to have the interruption sure but it wasn't bothering her in any way. So it's that sort of ability to hit a speed bump and just move along from it is that where does this ability to you mentioned staying present or just focusing on the next thing that's what Federn Adolf Djokovic Serena Murray had is that something that is trained from childhood where does that ability come from how how does how does someone start to to implement that and I guess that's what like Alcaraz and all these people are searching for now right yeah I think some people are better at it than others but but it takes practice and Novak will be the first one to tell you that is that the more times you're in a high pressure situation of major adversity, the better you're going to be at handling it, the more understanding you're gonna have of the tools you need to rely on. You know, with him it's some very psychosomatic things of like feeling the sensations of the ice towel on the back of his neck and you know really tasting the gator the the whatever energy drink um he's drinking at that moment. And uh you know I mentioned the Cincinnati yeah right about the Cincinnati final um in 2023, which was maybe the greatest three set match anyone has ever seen with him and Alcaraz going for something like four hours um in that final and in Cincinnati in August when everybody knows how hot it is. And he was very, very focused on on the position of the sun in the sky and just trying to last until the sun sort of dipped behind the upper upper part of the roof there and would shade the court because he knew that that would bring him a great deal of relief. And so if he could just get there, he felt like you know he'd have a great chance. And he did. And it's so it's like when you when I think about what I said before about staying present
Learning To Stay Present
SPEAKER_01it's not just like okay I'm gonna stay present and then you sit and you breathe and you visualize or something like that. It's being really hyper aware of what you're doing and being intentional about your movements and just you know it it's I I don't believe that it's possible to shut everything out because I don't think we really have control of our thoughts. But understanding that even if a thought of doubt comes into your head, it's just a doubt. It's not a premonition it's not a prophecy um you're still going to bounce the ball you still have great technique you know you you can still hit this serve right down the T no matter what you're feeling.
SPEAKER_00You talked about the differences between the the big three or big four and Serena and that generation to today um at the beginning of the book I I downloaded on Audible this morning and started listening. I haven't finished yet but I'm I'm part of the way through chapter one uh since it was released yesterday. But at the beginning you talk about some of the players not really being willing to give up. And at the beginning of this podcast you said tennis is the only sport where players do give up at the top right or walk away at the top.
SPEAKER_01So that's two kind of polar opposite things right like Nadal like continuing to want to hang on right Djokovic is still playing Serena's trying to come back how do you make sense of that and when should a pro tennis player retirement they're you know they're their own people they have the right to retire whenever they want to retire you know um so you know if they want to squeeze every last ounce of juice out of the lemon that's you know far be it from me to tell them when to walk away especially if they're especially if there are millions of dollars of endorsement deals on the line. You know having said that what you see in tennis is you know the the ecstasy of winning to these especially to these great players um who have won so much you know is so full of joy it's a drug and it's it's almost impossible to
Why Legends Refuse To Quit
SPEAKER_01just give it up and you have to give it up cold turkey too there's no there's no okay well I'll only win like once a year because you don't get to decide that chances are like your abilities fade your body breaks down on you um it goes away uh but what doesn't go away is you know the feel the last the last place tennis leaves is your hands you know I mean if you look you know you do a couple of keyboards hit hit the keyboard a couple of times and pull up the video of Roger Federer hitting at Stanford last year um with Tony Godzick's son Nico Tony Godzik's his agent and like you still see the most beautiful forehand you know it's just so fluid uh it it it that that touch that doesn't really go away um what goes away is everything else but as long as that feeling is there that great feel for the ball um there's that belief that like well all I have to do is play great for two weeks and then on the final Sunday play the match of my life and I've done that before so yeah how how far away could it actually be um and it's that desperation to get that I think it's a that desperation to get to get that joy again. And it's also very hard to face the alternative and this understanding that you know if you're 33 35 even 38 years old the biggest thing you're going to do in your life has already happened. I don't think any of us experience that or really know that for a fact because we haven't been in the middle of a cauldron of tens of thousands of people cheering for us. And our our livelihoods don't depend on our bodies they depend on our minds which last a lot longer than our bodies do in most cases. So it's really hard it's it's really hard to give up um and like I said it's the thing that makes so many of these players great is being stubborn um being delusional in many cases and at the end of their careers that can really sort of work against them. But like I said it's it's up to them having having said all that like I I I think if I had been Novak Djokovic and you know I'm certainly not and this is one of a thousand things that makes us different once I won that Olympic gold medal I don't think I ever would have played another 10 minutes match again. I think I would have just walked away you know he'd done it he'd the he'd had the Grand Slam record it wasn't going to get broken. There was one thing left that he wanted which was the Olympic gold medal and you know it would have been the ultimate walk-off it hasn't gone that way he's still great he's still making Grand Slam semifinals and Grand Slam finals this year you know at in Australia and beating center um over five sets I mean incredible accomplishments so up to him he can do whatever he wants of course uh but it is you know gonna be it's going to be I think the hardest thing he's ever done in his life when he ultimately decides to walk away yeah it's it it brings up for me this debate of like would it even have been possible like so let's say he did have the mindset of like if I win Olympic gold I'm retiring right but if he had that mindset he would be a different person and would that person be able to win 24 majors and Olympic gold and all the other stuff?
SPEAKER_00Like does he have to have that mindset to have all those accomplishments right that's what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_01It's one of those great strengths greatest weakness right um you know it's the same thing. So you know and if he had told himself that would he have even won that day or would that have been too much pressure? Uh I mean Ans Jabor had told herself if she could just win Wimbledon she was going to walk away and go have a baby. Look it's really hard to win the Wimbledon final without the stress of a biological clock ticking in the back of your brain. You know if you bring that onto the court I would argue that is the opposite of being present in the moment and it and that's I would you know I think that's just too much for anybody to have on their shoulders um you know to to have that as as the equation and the reward that's hanging out there. So I I'm sure that Djokovic you know maybe the thought had passed through his head maybe I'll just win and then walk away it would only be human. I know that's what his wife was hoping would happen. But yeah I I think once he you know once he did that he thought you know I mean and that was one of the great performances I think anyone has ever seen on a tennis court. Yeah certainly the best I I I I would have to argue the best two set match I've ever seen. And you know and it was coming on the heels of one of the great three set matches the previous years uh and a great five set match that they had played at Wimbledon. So walking away from that's really hard.
SPEAKER_00What was the hardest part about writing this book? Writing this book yeah writing this book. Oh and that's it the actual writing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah no writing is hard um and rewriting you know because writing is mostly rewriting and uh you know I threw it it it took me you know 150 to 200 pages to to figure out exactly what I was writing and I ended up tossing those first at least 150 pages because I just thought they were crap. It was getting well well I mean there were a couple of things is is it it was getting to point to understanding what I needed to write and what I needed to write was a book that you know answered that question about why tennis was different from all other sports. And a book that brought you inside the minds and inside the struggles and and inside the glory that the most important players in the world face and work through and experience. And you know that takes a lot of a lot of reporting and a lot of um trust uh you know not simply with players but with the people
Reporting, Rewriting, And Trust
SPEAKER_01around them um and getting into getting into the right conversation so that you can gather the proper material so that I could write a book that was worthy of you spending whatever you had to spend um to download it uh or to go to the bookstore and pay for it because there's just so much information out there uh and so much material out there that you know you really only want something at least me personally and I think a lot of people you really only want to spend I mean you can spend thirty dollars on on anything you can spend it on a on a cheeseburger these days so it's not that but you know the time that you're gonna invest with a book is you know that's the priceless commodity every minute you spend doing one thing you can't spend it doing something else and we are all limited in that sense so you know what I needed to do was write a book that was going to be a worth your time um and so it's a matter of getting the material um which I thought was which was pretty hard uh and then putting it in a reasonable shape and you know that that takes four drafts so um it's also a moving target you know I had a I had a deadline I had a series of deadlines you know but but tennis keeps changing so um it's really it you know it's really complicated and fortunately fortunately I I chose what I thought was sort of storylines and Frameworks, you know, my framework held. Um, my theories held. Like the important, the most important players remained the most important players for the most part. And the you didn't have too many surprises. I had I had you know finished basically a year ago this you know big section on the American men. And it was basically based on they're great, they just not be might not be great enough. That's sort of the working theory of it, and why aren't they great enough um, you know, to win a grand slam is what I'm saying. And you know, here we are on August 5th, 2026, and none of them have won a Grand Slam.
SPEAKER_00So you know what if one of them had won, like what if Fritz had won Wimbledon or something? Uh by then it's too late, I guess, to change it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, by then it's too late, and uh, you know, when you get to the parts about Fritz, you know, you'll see that there you there are ways of building in a certain amount of uncertainty because you know, obviously nothing can predict the f it predict the future. Um yeah, it would, you know, but yeah, that was that's a chance you take when you write about a sport and you're trying to stay current and the sport never ends, like tennis never ends, and and you just you know, it's like I said, it's it's a moving target. And so you're trying to write write about big themes that will stand the test of time.
SPEAKER_00What do you hope people will walk away with after reading it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think what we talked about earlier, I think uh empathy, understanding about the challenge of this sport, you know, the realization that while it is beautiful, it's not ballet, it's more like boxing. Um that when players lose tennis matches, it feels like it feels like getting punched in the face. Um you know, just how tough this sport is, you know, and that these are men and women at work. Um, yes, they're playing a game, but they are work, you know, this is their job, this is their place of work, and they're working really hard at their profession, and it's a really hard job.
SPEAKER_00Is boxing, do you think, the best analogy in terms of like comparing tennis to other sports? Is boxing the closest?
SPEAKER_01Maybe jujitsu. Um, maybe just full-on grappling. And um I I wouldn't go so far as MMA because uh, you know, that doesn't it, you know, it's it seems like it's a little less bloody than some sort of one-on-one contact, though.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but yeah, but I mean it's different because it's non-contact.
SPEAKER_01It's non-contact, so unique. It's non-contact, but it doesn't feel like non-contact, I don't think. It feels like, I mean, and a boxer would have a way with me. And you know, Mike Tyson would say, Yeah, you want to you want to know what contact feels like? I'll show you what contact feels like. And it doesn't right. Mike Tyson's daughter actually is a tennis player, is a junior tennis player, so he knows something about he knows something about both sports. Um but uh yeah, I think it it's it, you know, look when when four doubles guys are at the net like that and they're jamming balls at each other, you know, that feels pretty aggressive. And one of and one ball goes above somebody's shoulders or above some, you know, slightly above somebody's head, and you're the and the opponent is eight feet away. Um and you know what's coming, that's a pretty nasty situation. I mean, now I'm playing in some media tournament in Miami, and uh, you know, there's a photographer who's a really good tennis player, and I'm standing at the deck, he gets an overhead. And I mean, this is a guy who I think you know played on satellite tour matches uh not that long ago. Um and you know, he reared back and hit an overhead and it nailed me right in the chest, and I got really hurt. Like at that moment, tennis felt like a contact sport. Um I guarantee you when Zverev rolled his ankle in the in the French Open semifinals against uh against Nadal in you know the second set of what had been what was shaping up to be an absolutely brutal afternoon in terms of the humidity and the just the you know the war that playing Nadal on Red Clay is, um, I think it probably felt like a contact sport.
SPEAKER_00Sure. Yeah, it's so different. When you mentioned earlier, like the the juniors um in the childhood for a tennis player versus like golf or skiing, some of these other individual ones. You're not well like I played golf when I was a kid, and when I play golf with my friends, I'm playing still playing against the course, like you mentioned, right? I'm not I'm not trying to beat like I'm trying to beat my friend, but I'm not affecting their play, right?
SPEAKER_01Right, there's no defense. I mean, and this is I mean, this is I think this is the main reason why, you know, I I I mean I still play tennis now. Um you know, but as a as an adult, I I haven't I haven't I don't play like USCA league matches or anything like that. Um and I run marathons and like you know I'm running the course.
SPEAKER_00I'm just nobody it's it's a big relief, you know, doing and you can't like trip the fellow runners, like yeah, yeah, I guess you could, but I'm not really running against them.
SPEAKER_01I'm running, you know, I'm running against the clock. So, you know, um yeah, so it's a whole it's a whole it's a different it's a different ethos without clock.
SPEAKER_00All right, so everybody check out the book. I'm gonna link to it in the show notes. Uh I do want to ask you a couple of questions about doubles before we hop off here, Matt. Um there's recent ATP news, which I'm sure you're familiar with. They're gonna cut the doubles draws in half, um, change the prize money distribution from 8020 to 90 ten at the 1000s and the 500 tournaments. Um, and then also one of the more concerning things for me is change the way you get into um some of the challenger events where you can only get into the doubles draw via your singles ranking, um, basically cutting off a pathway for double specialists. What do you know about this and what what is your opinion on it all? What what are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_01Um, you know, I know this has been in the works for a while. Um you know, there is there there seems to be a lot of tension among you know between singles players and and doubles players and this sense of like, what is doubles anyway? And uh I think there's great frustration on the part of the tours uh that they that doubles feels like just like a jobs program, um that the stands are empty for so many matches. Um it's like an add-on,
ATP Doubles Cuts And Fallout
SPEAKER_01it's filler. Uh and I guess my overall thought about doubles, and I I think we've talked about this both, you know, on the air and off, is that you know, they can cut the prize money and they can do all that, but you know, the that that's not gonna really solve any problems. Like the the the problem is to make is that that they have to solve is to make this of these events more appealing and more sustaining. Um I've long believed that like the format was the format was kind of all wrong and stretching the tournament over many days. I would like, I mean, I think doubles tournaments, you know, are great. I want it, I think it should all be really sort of condensed and compact and like two days, one court, one match after another, music, kids, noise, happiness, party. Like it's right now it's marketed as like a lesser form of tennis. And when you just go from 8020 to 9010, you make the problem worse. Um you make it even lesser, you make it even less appealing for players to participate in it. I, you know, while it's something that has hurt doubles players, I really like applaud the US Open and what they've done with the mixed double tournament because they've tried to make it into something appealing and to make it a spectacle. And look, you know, it really doesn't matter what I think, because I sat in Arthur At Stadium last year
Making Doubles A Real Event
SPEAKER_01at a mixed doubles, semifinals, and finals, and I was one of 24,000 people there. And that's not happening under the old format, you know, but they had gotten an amazing combination of star appeal format and event presentation that had shown that there was that there is a market for the sport under the right circumstances.
SPEAKER_00Have you ever, and this will be my last question for you, have you ever come across a sport? Um, I know you've covered a lot of sports, you mentioned earlier, that doesn't market their own product in the same way that tennis does not market doubles.
SPEAKER_01You know, there was a while there in the in, you know, the i I would say in that first 10 years um of the WNBA, where the NBA, which owned it basically, was just, I don't think, really marketing it in a way that they should have. And um and so i i I would say that's a comparison. I would say there's certain women's sports. Um college sports could do a lot better in terms of marketing themselves. Fortunately, they've changed the rules so they can get a lot more star appeal in in their sports. Um so in in that sense, yes, a little bit. But yeah, I mean, putting, you know, saying, okay, we've got this thing called doubles, and we're gonna play it, we're gonna play this match at 11, start it at 11.15 at night after two s after a day all a full day of singles, and like saying, see, nobody cares about doubles. I mean, that's just that's not fair. I mean, that's that's absurd. It's like, what are you I mean, at that point, why even bother with 90-10? Why not just get rid of the whole thing? Because, you know, that that I think is is it's just not giving either the players or the game the kind of dignity it deserves. I'm not saying they need they deserve to be paid as much as singles players, um, but there is a way to take doubles um and make it more appealing. I I like the NOAD scoring. I love the I, you know, I love the the 10-point tie break um instead of a third set. I think these are all great uh great innovations. Um I don't know if I've said this to you before on air off. I would like the men to play with only one serve. Um I don't like first, I don't like it it's just too hard and it makes it too predictable. Uh I like sports with lead changes, and there aren't enough lead changes in doubles. Um there's a lot of tie breaks. And uh, you know, I think what it anything you can do without getting too gimmicky, um, and I don't think eliminating and I don't think going with only one serve makes it makes it too gimmicky. Um, but anything you can do to make it so there's more shifts and changes and comebacks and things like that, uh you know, make it harder to sit on a lead. Um I think those are all good, those are all good things. And like I said, put it all on one court, court 17 at the US Open, 2500 people, bring in, bring in the music, bring in the noise, like get as many kids in there as possible, cheap tickets, and go from there and make just make make it fun. It's it's too good a game, and it's the game that
Rules Ideas For Better Doubles
SPEAKER_01most I think most casual tennis players, certainly of a certain age, play. So there is an affinity for it. Um it just I think it just has to be kind of uh uh rethought and thought of more ambitiously.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. All right, we could talk about that all day, but I know you gotta run. Matt, thanks a ton for coming on, and uh I appreciate the time. Any last kind of comments or uh parting words for the audience?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I like I said, I just hope that um first of all, I hope the book finds an audience, and I hope that the audience comes away from it. Um feeling like even if you are someone who follows tennis intensely, that you learn something about a player or about the game that you didn't know before. Um and I also hope uh that like if there's a young player out there who is struggling with the sport, and you know, I hope the book lands in their hands. And if one of them reads a book and feels a little less lonely and feels like, okay, so there are other people, even great players, that experience the struggles that I experience, then that will really feel like a success that that will make it all worthwhile to me. Um, that one person uh, you know, feeling a little less alone um and in a little less pain uh because they feel like
Hopes For Readers And Players
SPEAKER_01they have some company and all this. Um, you know, I could not sell, you know, I could I could sell very few books, but if I helped one person, I'd have to like give myself a pat on the back and feel like it was worthwhile.
SPEAKER_00That's great. Great message. Thanks a ton, Matt. Thank you.